are crimps acceptable for joining wires

[iwire]

I am not an inspector, I am a skilled tradesman. Inspectors have to allow the worst possible work allowed by law.

Dude, you really want to come across as saying that anyone using crimps on line voltage is doing the worst work allowed by code?

 

[K8MHZ]

Link to catalog I linked to is at the bottom of that page. I think that is how I got to the catalog first time. Neither page tells whether the devices are rated for solid or stranded conductor. I have to assume either at this point.

If they are really UL listed, they have to accept both solid and stranded, that's probably why it's not stated. However, the listing also requires the instructions to be followed, and I would hazard to guess they specify a certain (expensive) crimper. The connectors only have to make an acceptable connection to solid conductors using that particular crimper.

 

[K8MHZ]

Dude, you really want to come across as saying that anyone using crimps on line voltage is doing the worst work allowed by code?

Is there something worse than that which would still be legal?

My comment was more about the inspector's job. The standards he can enforce are the lowest allowed by law, not the best, the most convenient or the prettiest.

I don't think there is a worse legal connection to solid wires than a crimp type butt splice connector. If there is, please enlighten me.

I am not against all crimp connections, I use them very often. I am talking specifically about butt splice crimps on solid wire.

 

[kwired]

And I would pass such a job on to you, and you could 'own' the mess when the splices fail just after you have had your mitts in it. One or two, no issue. But the OP was talking dozens.



At least we understand each other.



I spent too many years in maintenance for a company that had die cast foundries, machine shops and packaging lines. Yes, I know they love butt splice crimps and I have fixed many, that's why I don't like them.

Bob, do you really use such connectors on solid wire?



I was going to suggest a different brand if the GB's weren't really listed. 3M makes very good connectors, I have used hundreds. I'll bet the GB ones are cheesy compared to 3M and Burndy.

I am not an inspector, I am a skilled tradesman. Inspectors have to allow the worst possible work allowed by law.

Same here, but when coming across something already done, do you rework everything you would have done differently or only stuff you see as a a high risk to life or property?

Those GB splicers might be cheesey, but most of those type devices I use are just as cheap. I generally only use them on low current applications like control circuits, don't seem to have much track record of failures there. One of the next common applications though is on motor capacitors or maintenance work where other crimp on type connectors were originally used - there is a lot of failure rate there - maybe it is because of cheesey connectors. I avoid using them on solid conductors - those seem to have a higher failure rate.

I find a lot of GB products to be a bit more cheesey then others, but they typically are lower cost as well. I wouldn't say they are totally the bottom feeders of the industry either though.

 

[K8MHZ]

This is the kind of stuff I run into. Not my pic, but I have seen hundreds of such failures.

 

[K8MHZ]

Same here, but when coming across something already done, do you rework everything you would have done differently or only stuff you see as a a high risk to life or property?

I touch as little as possible. If I touch anything outside my scope of work, I get it authorized from above first. That way, it's on someone else to ignore it or fix it, not me. Fixing 'one little thing' can cascade into many hours of unexpected work and someone has to pay for that.

Those GB splicers might be cheesey, but most of those type devices I use are just as cheap. I generally only use them on low current applications like control circuits, don't seem to have much track record of failures there. One of the next common applications though is on motor capacitors or maintenance work where other crimp on type connectors were originally used - there is a lot of failure rate there - maybe it is because of cheesey connectors. I avoid using them on solid conductors - those seem to have a higher failure rate.

I find a lot of GB products to be a bit more cheesey then others, but they typically are lower cost as well. I wouldn't say they are totally the bottom feeders of the industry either though.

Yes, GB is kind of low-mid range. I am on my 2nd GB 'sta-kon- type crimper and just like the first one, the jaw cracks. I won't by a 3rd. The one still in use has a visible crack, but the jaw hasn't fallen off yet like the first one.

Their connectors are just a step above HF. The best connectors I have found are 3M. They aren't near as finicky about which type of crimpers are used. In fact, I was just playing with a HF ratchet crimper (15 bucks, I think) and 3M fork terminals. The result on stranded wire was upstanding. The strain relief is the big thing. With a good crimp, the plastic on the terminal 'fuses' to the wire insulation so when the wire is pulled, it doesn't pull on the conductor.

 

[kwired]

This is the kind of stuff I run into. Not my pic, but I have seen hundreds of such failures.

Looks like they crimped the outer edge of the insulating sleeve and not the inner metal sleeve where the actual connection takes place. Will get a similar failure from the best quality devices out there as well if that is where the crimp is.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I've got to move it up a foot. It's currently within 3' of the gas vent and the meter has to be 3'6" above the ground (it's currently just under that), so up it goes. I'm hoping that most of the connections come from above and I'll actually get more slack when I fish them out of the wall, but Murphy's Law states that they'll all come from below. I'm sure that a few circuits I can make work by rearranging or moving the breakers to the bottom of the panel, but I always hate it when the blanks aren't at the bottom.

What panel are you using? Get one that has the neutral bar on both sides all the way down and then add a ground bar to connect the equipment grounding conductor's.

 

[kwired]

I've got to move it up a foot. It's currently within 3' of the gas vent and the meter has to be 3'6" above the ground (it's currently just under that), so up it goes. I'm hoping that most of the connections come from above and I'll actually get more slack when I fish them out of the wall, but Murphy's Law states that they'll all come from below. I'm sure that a few circuits I can make work by rearranging or moving the breakers to the bottom of the panel, but I always hate it when the blanks aren't at the bottom.

Was going to respond and got side tracked - If the gas vent is the issue why not move the gas vent? Sounds like a lot less work - though maybe not your type of work.

 

[K8MHZ]

Looks like they crimped the outer edge of the insulating sleeve and not the inner metal sleeve where the actual connection takes place. Will get a similar failure from the best quality devices out there as well if that is where the crimp is.

Yes, that is poor workmanship. However, I have seen solid wire pull out of crimp connectors that were done fine, it's just a poor, but legally acceptable, design.

When used on stranded conductors, if done properly, they are much more dependable.

 

[iwire]

This is the kind of stuff I run into. Not my pic, but I have seen hundreds of such failures.

100s, really? Maybe stretching things a bit.

[/QUOTE]


I can find pictures of failed wirenuts, screw connectors etc. That butt splice in the picture did not even fail, it was not installed correctly which is a problem with wirenuts as well. They crimped the plastic not the metal.

As far as GB specifically? Yeah I think they make crap.

As far as crimps in general they, like any other connector are only as good as the installer and the specific application needs to be considered. High, cycling current and / or vibration may not be a good application of them.

That said some small motors (1/3 to 1 HP) have terminals that leave no choice but to use a crimp connector of some sort, ring. fork or female spade etc.

 

[K8MHZ]

100s, really? Maybe stretching things a bit.

I started in industrial maintenance in 1976. If you owned a car made in 1976, I probably fixed the machines that made the cam shafts for them. In the early 80's I started on heavy equipment. I worked on single trailers that had close to a dozen failed crimp connectors. From then I went back and forth between types of electrical troubleshooting work. Factories, cars, boats, houses, appliances....if it has electricity in it and is prone to failure, I have probably worked on it. After failure, not before....:lol:

I had one job making sure a fleet of semi trucks and trailers all had street legal lighting on them, and I'll bet I fixed 100 failed crimp connectors just on that 6 month job.

 

[iwire]

I started in industrial maintenance in 1976. If you owned a car made in 1976, I probably fixed the machines that made the cam shafts for them. In the early 80's I started on heavy equipment. I worked on single trailers that had close to a dozen failed crimp connectors. From then I went back and forth between types of electrical troubleshooting work. Factories, cars, boats, houses, appliances....if it has electricity in it and is prone to failure, I have probably worked on it. After failure, not before....:lol:

Yeah and the rest of us don't do electrical service.

I had one job making sure a fleet of semi trucks and trailers all had street legal lighting on them, and I'll bet I fixed 100 failed crimp connectors just on that 6 month job.

Hardly fair comparing using a dry location connector in a dry location to one used in a wet location likely exposed to road chemicals as well. There is almost no splice that lasts for those applications. That is tough service.

To each their own, I don't think crimps are good for all splices and in the OPs case I would likely use wirenuts, faster and what would be in my immediate reach. I just cant say crimps are bad in general.

 

[mgookin]

When I was in college I had a car that suffered a fire under the hood. If wiring harnesses were available back then, I was unaware. I used crimp connectors to replace one wire at a time. That car ran 10 more years.

We use crimp connectors here at our plant in an umbilical cord and we run up to 530V AC through them. Never had a problem.

Had an issue last year where the serpentine belt under the hood of my Expedition failed and cut the harnesses to the cam sensors. Crimp connectors to the rescue.

Take your time, do it right, tug hard afterwards, and seal it. I use liquid rubber, 3 coats. Others use heat shrink. There's nothing that requires it to be sealed, but it's a better job.

A failed crimp typically results in loss of use of that circuit. A failed wirenut has a better chance of resulting in fire from arcing.

 

[mgookin]

Was going to respond and got side tracked - If the gas vent is the issue why not move the gas vent? Sounds like a lot less work - though maybe not your type of work.

Are you one of the (EC) respondents who advised me to use a gas water heater when I was sizing an electric one?

He makes his money doing electrical. If that's what they want on the job, he has opportunity to put food on his table. :thumbsup:

It's interesting when an electrician says the solution to an electrical inquiry is to call the gas man.

 

[K8MHZ]

There is almost no splice that lasts for those applications. That is tough service.

Not applicable to this thread, but yes, there is such a splice and I have made many hundreds over the years. It's solder with shrink tube. A couple weeks ago I did 50+ such splices on one engine control harness for a friend of mine that had to repair said harness he pulled off a Kenworth semi that had an engine fire. One single connector on that harness had 30 splices to be made.

Soldering is very time consuming and will fail if done improperly, or if poor solder or improper flux is used. The shrink tube not only keeps the splice clean and dry, a good installation will also provide some strain relief.

I used to repair engine harnesses for auto shops being paid by insurance companies. Not once did I use a crimp connector, and after repairing dozens a year for several years, I have never had a single failure.

Back to the OT, I would not use solder, like you, I would minimize the use of tried and true wire nuts and use them.

 

[user 100]

I would hazard to guess they specify a certain (expensive) crimper. The connectors only have to make an acceptable connection to solid conductors using that particular crimper.

As far as GB specifically? Yeah I think they make crap.

One tool that they have listed for their bare copper sleeves and also, iirc the type of sleeve listed by the op, is their GCP-5000a.....

Good luck finding that- I have never seen that tool anywhere.

A failed crimp typically results in loss of use of that circuit. A failed wirenut has a better chance of resulting in fire from arcing.

IME, the old single punch steel bare sleeves which did not specify pretwisting tend fail pretty bad when used on solid CCCs. The barrel carries current, and has a habit of rusting out and the joint starts to overheat.....

OTOH, have seen some copper crimp splices 40/50 yrs old that are perfectly fine.

Another issue with crimps on solid is damage to the conductor by guys that squeeze a tool too hard:rant:.

They don't get it that the wires only need to pass a pull a reasonable pull test, just like a wirenut.:happyno:

 

[infinity]

Not applicable to this thread, but yes, there is such a splice and I have made many hundreds over the years. It's solder with shrink tube. A couple weeks ago I did 50+ such splices on one engine control harness for a friend of mine that had to repair said harness he pulled off a Kenworth semi that had an engine fire. One single connector on that harness had 30 splices to be made.

Soldering is very time consuming and will fail if done improperly, or if poor solder or improper flux is used. The shrink tube not only keeps the splice clean and dry, a good installation will also provide some strain relief.

I used to repair engine harnesses for auto shops being paid by insurance companies. Not once did I use a crimp connector, and after repairing dozens a year for several years, I have never had a single failure.

Back to the OP, I would not use solder, like you, I would minimize the use of tried and true wire nuts and use them.

I've used solder + silicone + heat shrink splices on my boat trailer and after 10 years not one splice has failed, even the ones that have been submerged in salt water.

Back to the type of crimps in the OP, when installed correctly (proper size and proper crimp tool) they will work just fine. I found the ones that fail typically look like they were just crushed or flattened by the backside of lineman's pliers without a crimper or someone used the improper tool for the job.

 

[kwired]

Are you one of the (EC) respondents who advised me to use a gas water heater when I was sizing an electric one?

He makes his money doing electrical. If that's what they want on the job, he has opportunity to put food on his table. :thumbsup:

It's interesting when an electrician says the solution to an electrical inquiry is to call the gas man.

Happy customers also call you back for future work. Give them options - I can move the panel for $1500, or a gas man can move the vent for maybe $250.

I did recently tell a potential customer they needed to get a different water heater then the tankless electric they decided to put in their mobile home. They had to replace a failed storage tank style water heater, and this tankless electric looked like a good buy, until I told them the supply to the home didn't even have enough capacity to handle the tankless heater let alone the rest of the home still needed some capacity. These were people that I knew couldn't afford that on top of it all, but in small community you know more about the people in the area. Put same people in a large population area in same situation and someone will take advantage of them and won't care either.

 

[K8MHZ]

I've used solder + silicone + heat shrink splices on my boat trailer and after 10 years not one splice has failed, even the ones that have been submerged in salt water.

Next time try to find some dual walled tubing. The 'silicone' is already in the tube. That's what OEM's use in their harnesses. It's pricey, but it's really great stuff.