Banned panels and breakers

[ramsy]

The prohibition of "Increased Hazards" during the insurance policy term, is common language in most state insurance codes.

This Insurance code is separate from construction defect law, trade license law, workman's comp. requirements, building permit violations, safety code, or fire hazards, but if found by any AHJ listed in NEC 90.4, insurance non-renewal & cancellation typically prevails with such illegality, if not complete loss of casualty claims for property owners.

Its very strange that insurance is identifying its highest risk at fuse boxes, with poor AFCI support, such as SQ-D QO, and which are least likely to spontaneously combust like everything else down stream.

 

[Jraef]

I have no doubt, GM keeps turning on my Onstar with limited service for free, so no doubt they are selling the info. Didn’t think about that anterior motive. I just figured they were trying to get me to resubscribe.

Both... trying to get you to join in on their "ARR" (Annual Recurring Revenue) program AND selling the tracking data just in case you don't (or do for that matter).

Know who else is? Your cell phone carrier. Have you ever seen the highway signs in congested areas that tell you "24 minutes to Downtown", "13 minutes to XYZ bridge"? They know that because cell phones have been tracking everyone that goes by.

ARR by the way is the new corporate-speak for how business models are changing. They don't want us peons to "own" stuff any more by selling it at a higher price, they want us to pay small amounts continually to use it. To me, it is not coincidental that ARR is the sound a pirate makes when he is taking your money...

 

[LarryFine]

Know who else is? Your cell phone carrier. Have you ever seen the highway signs in congested areas that tell you "24 minutes to Downtown", "13 minutes to XYZ bridge"? They know that because cell phones have been tracking everyone that goes by.

So, I affect the signs when I go extra fast?

 

[hillbilly1]

Big box stores use Bluetooth receivers in the LED drivers to communicate locations of customers in the stores. They don’t know who you are, but your phone’s Bluetooth lets them track you, and if stand in a certain place for a period of time, like looking at a product or display, it logs it.

 

[hornetd]

Yeah, cite Edison, didn't he say AC stuff was dangerous?

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison.

Tom Horne

 

[hornetd]

In Northern Virginia many many condos and apartments built in the 1970s have Federal Pacific panels. In the last year I have received calls from several property managers soliciting bids for replacing the panels. It is the same story. The insurance company is pressuring them to replace the panels. The insurance companies are threatening cancellation or big increases.

We know these panels have a bad reputation but did something happen that provoked this response from the insurance companies?

Federal Pacific Electric was sued out of existence after they falsified factory testing of their breakers and they wouldn't open on a bolted fault. The journeymen were very fond of illustrating the problem by arc welding on the nearest piece of grounded metal with a wire connected to a FPE breaker. Guess who paid all of the losses from those fires? The insurance industry of course.

That is why many of them are ceasing to write policies for properties in hurricane prone areas. Some State Insurance Commissioners are now retaliating by forbidding those companies from writing any insurance in their State. If they want to write the highly profitable stuff, like car insurance, they have to write the more marginal stuff like homeowners policies.

All stockholder owned insurance companies will avoid paying a loss based on any excuse they can find.

Tom Horne

 

[hillbilly1]

Federal Pacific Electric was sued out of existence after they falsified factory testing of their breakers and they wouldn't open on a bolted fault. The journeymen were very fond of illustrating the problem by arc welding on the nearest piece of grounded metal with a wire connected to a FPE breaker. Guess who paid all of the losses from those fires? The insurance industry of course.

That is why many of them are ceasing to write policies for properties in hurricane prone areas. Some State Insurance Commissioners are now retaliating by forbidding those companies from writing any insurance in their State. If they want to write the highly profitable stuff, like car insurance, they have to write the more marginal stuff like homeowners policies.

All stockholder owned insurance companies will avoid paying a loss based on any excuse they can find.

Tom Horne

Back before circuit tracers came out, I would work in KMarts which had FPE panels, tried to trip the breaker to replace broke floor outlets, most of the time I had to just work it hot, because the breaker would not trip!

 

[hornetd]

Back before circuit tracers came out, I would work in KMarts which had FPE panels, tried to trip the breaker to replace broke floor outlets, most of the time I had to just work it hot, because the breaker would not trip!

I regularly turned down work involving FPE breakers when they couldn't be deenergized. On one trouble call I told them I would come back at midnight when I could kill the Westinghouse feeder breaker to the entire panel. When the manager said he thought that wasn't warranted I welded my phone number into the panel cover and told him to call me if he changed his mind. I left a note that explained that I had done the welding with a wire off one of the FPE breakers. He called back at 7PM and I arranged it for he following night. I showed up with a box of Federal Pacific Canada breakers and changed out every one. I then demonstrated that the new ones tripped before you even had firm contact with the neutral busbar. He didn't even blink when I presented a bill with graveyard shift differential hourly rate.

Tom Horne

 

[petersonra]

Can't say I blame the insurance companies. A known hazard needs to be mitigated.

 

[kwired]

Back before circuit tracers came out, I would work in KMarts which had FPE panels, tried to trip the breaker to replace broke floor outlets, most of the time I had to just work it hot, because the breaker would not trip!

Before tracers came out or before you ever seen/heard of one?

I would think the ability to make one of these was around probably in 1940's but actual use of such things were likely somewhat limited to certain industries and likely may have started out with a need to find pairs/conductors in telephone cables.

That said would been somewhat easy to connect a load that varies in an easy to detect pattern at easy to detect load level and clamp an ammeter around conductors until you find the one with that load pattern on it.

 

[LarryFine]

That said would been somewhat easy to connect a load that varies in an easy to detect pattern at easy to detect load level and clamp an ammeter around conductors until you find the one with that load pattern on it.

 

[hillbilly1]

Before tracers came out or before you ever seen/heard of one?

I would think the ability to make one of these was around probably in 1940's but actual use of such things were likely somewhat limited to certain industries and likely may have started out with a need to find pairs/conductors in telephone cables.

That said would been somewhat easy to connect a load that varies in an easy to detect pattern at easy to detect load level and clamp an ammeter around conductors until you find the one with that load pattern on it.

Those work good in residential, but too time consuming in commercial. Too many panels to take apart.

 

[BarryO]

Have you ever seen the highway signs in congested areas that tell you "24 minutes to Downtown", "13 minutes to XYZ bridge"? They know that because cell phones have been tracking everyone that goes by.

I don't know about other places, but the signs in the Portland, OR area work by recording the Bluetooth addresses of passing phones, and then recording them again when they are further down the road.

 

[BarryO]

Insurance company knows nothing.

My experience with insurance companies is that they hear some rumour about something, and that can easily turn into an policy endorsement banning the use of it.

Some insurance companies will not cover your home if you have K&T wiring or aluminum wiring. The trick is not to mention it when you are buying the home.

One prospective buyer told his insurance company and they wouldn't cover him with the aluminum wiring. The same house was bought by another person who never said a word about the aluminum and the house is covered ----unless they have a disclaimer hidden in the contract.

Yep. You know how they say "don't talk to the police"? Don't talk to insurance agents. Never volunteer information that they don't specifically ask for. Never engage in "friendly" chit-chat.

 

[hornetd]

Can't say I blame the insurance companies. A known hazard needs to be mitigated.

Quoting what you are replying to is very helpful to those trying to figure out what you are replying to. You just highlight the portion of someone else's post that you want to reply to and a link labeled reply will drop down. When you use that link the reply box will only contain the highlighted portion of the post's text but it will provide a link to take the reader back to the original posting.

 

[mtnelect]

I have found, that being honest and open with authority figures is the best pathway to follow. Being evasive with authority figures is the best way to get yourself into more trouble.

 

[kwired]

Quoting what you are replying to is very helpful to those trying to figure out what you are replying to. You just highlight the portion of someone else's post that you want to reply to and a link labeled reply will drop down.

Cool, I never knew you could do it that way. I just did it for this reply.

 

[Flickoftheswitch]

My chiropractor reached out to me wanting me to quote him a load center replacement at his office, which is an old house in a residential area that is now zoned for commercial. His insurance company had apparently done an inspection and sent him a termination letter, effective in March, if he does not change out the Federal Pacific panel that's been there for 50 or 60 years. Insurance companies in our area seem to be paying closer attention to panel gear and wiring than they have in the past.

Looking at the list from the OP, I can't wrap my head around whether they are lumping ITE/Siemens together or whether they're just talking about Pushmatic/Bulldog stuff. Prohibiting current Siemens products, or current Square D products, is just silly.

While I understand not wanting to cover Pushmatic/ITE stuff simply due to age, I'd hardly lump it in the same category as something like FPE. Any time a customer comes to me with an FPE breaker in hand, I point back to the shelf with load centers on it. They usually look at me and say, "I don't see any breakers," to which I reply, "Me neither, but those panels back there will take plenty of new ones that are a lot safer than the one you have in your hand." Then I urge them to google Federal Pacific Engineering and tell them not to just take my word for it.

Many of them come back for new panels.

 

[rc/retired]

Ok!?

Ron

 

[ModbusMan]

Hoy... only problem I've ever had with SQ-D, whether at home or the office, is the price. Well, I do wish the QO220CAFI came in a PON version... I HATE pigtails.