Bath receptacle in bathtub space???

[Chamuit]

By the skin of your teeth . . . .

By the skin of your teeth . . . .

According to (2005 NEC) 406.8(C), I would say that you barely missed needing to move the receptacle. If I drew a line from the outside edge of the bathtub straight up the wall (the bathtub footprint), it looks like the receptacle is just outside being above the tub.

Why is the receptacle on that side of the sink (and mirror) anyways? Curious.

 

[stickboy1375]

Why is the receptacle on that side of the sink (and mirror) anyways? Curious.

I dont think it really matters why....:grin:

 

[dnem]

According to (2005 NEC) 406.8(C), I would say that you barely missed needing to move the receptacle. If I drew a line from the outside edge of the bathtub straight up the wall (the bathtub footprint), it looks like the receptacle is just outside being above the tub.

I agree with you about drawing a line from the tub face to the side wall. . I think that's a fair way to define a "stall". . I don't think it makes sense to say that the deck area is the stall. . As someone else brought up before, what if the deck extends out 3' feet [and I've seen that exact thing before on a whirlpool recessed into an extended deck].

Just as with a shower stall, the stall is defined by the wall not by how far away they decide to stop installing tile.

Just keep in mind that many here don't care where you draw any lines. . If the plug isn't above the porcelain, they don't care about any lines. . They don't believe in a bathtub stall.

David

 

[pfalcon]

I agree with you about drawing a line from the tub face to the side wall. . I think that's a fair way to define a "stall". . I don't think it makes sense to say that the deck area is the stall. . As someone else brought up before, what if the deck extends out 3' feet [and I've seen that exact thing before on a whirlpool recessed into an extended deck].

Just as with a shower stall, the stall is defined by the wall not by how far away they decide to stop installing tile.

Just keep in mind that many here don't care where you draw any lines. . If the plug isn't above the porcelain, they don't care about any lines. . They don't believe in a bathtub stall.

David

Are you saying that if the deck & tub in the picture is replaced by tile and a claw tub that installing the receptacle at hammer height is legit?

 

[dnem]

Are you saying that if the deck & tub in the picture is replaced by tile and a claw tub that installing the receptacle at hammer height is legit?

Like I said in my last post, "I don't think it makes sense to say that the deck area is the stall." . If you remove the deck and install a claw leg tub, nothing has changed.

I don't care about deck tile or leg claws or tub lips or porcelain touching or not touching the wall. . I don't care about plug height either. . I think the best interpretation of 406.8(C) is to define the limits of the bathtub stall and then keep the plugs out of the stall.

But since the exact location of the plug isn't going to impact safety, because it's not required to be 6 feet away, I'll defer to the interpretation of the contractor.

David

 

[electricmanscott]

Can somebody please tell me whay the term "bathtub stall" keeps coming up? :-?

 

[M. D.]

Can somebody please tell me whay the term "bathtub stall" keeps coming up? :-?

And those silly CMP members thought they were clearing it up for us,..

now we make up terms to make our point.

 

[pfalcon]

Warning: Personal Summary [aka IMO]

Warning: Personal Summary [aka IMO]

Can somebody please tell me whay the term "bathtub stall" keeps coming up? :-?

First of all because "bathtub stalls" exist. Second because of its, IMO, probable use in 406.8(C)

For references to bathtub stalls just run a web search. You will find plenty of references for modifying, installing, and removing them. I own several rental units that have them and for which no other good english expression applies. A side space walled on three sides, tiled, curtained, and containing only a tub.

Second, 406.8(C) used the phrase "bathtub or shower stall" as the restriction for receptacle placement. Unfortunately some English constructions are ambiguous such as that used above. Most commonly it means "bathtub stall or shower stall" such as in the sentence "The problem is in the washer or dryer outlet." Also the sentence "Would you like cheese or marinara sauce with that?" It is ambiguous because the alternative is also fairly common. Interpreting the expression as "shower stall or bathtub" is very legitimate.

The thread discussions [again IMO] are circling around several topics:
1) Do bathtub stalls exist?
2) Does 406.8(C) mean "bathtub stall and shower stall" or "shower stall and bathtub"?
3) Providing stalls exist and bathtub stalls was meant - how is a bathtub stall defined and what is its footprint.

IMO
1) Yes
2) Probably "bathtub stall and shower stall".
3) Since I believe #1 & #2 are met; Defined by its construction just like many other features of a house.

Presuming I'm not entirely off-base with the topic; it would be helpful if posters would specify their answers to these three issues. Such as:

1) No 2) N/A 3) N/A
1) Yes 2) No stall 3) N/A
1) Yes 2) Stall 3) Description

 

[M. D.]

Merriam Webster's online dictionary

Stall;
5: a small compartment <a shower stall>; especially : one with a toilet or urinal

hmmmm ,..no mention of bathtub

 

[quogueelectric]

Tub

Tub

TUB = 1tub
Pronunciation: \ˈtəb\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English tubbe, from Middle Dutch; akin to Middle Low German tubbe tub
Date: 12th century
1 a: a wide low vessel originally formed with wooden staves, round bottom, and hoops b: a small round container in which a product is sold <a tub of butter>
2: an old or slow boat
3: bathtub; also : bath
4: the amount that a tub will hold
? tub?ful \-ˌfu̇l\ noun
? tub?like \-ˌlīk\ adjective
Now the faucet and was built into the tile deck possibly making the deck an integral part of the tub

 

[charlie b]

The thread discussions [again IMO] are circling around several topics:

I agree.

1) Do bathtub stalls exist?
2) Does 406.8(C) mean "bathtub stall and shower stall" or "shower stall and bathtub"?
3) Providing stalls exist and bathtub stalls was meant - how is a bathtub stall defined and what is its footprint.

Good summary. These are essential elements of much of the debate

Presuming I'm not entirely off-base with the topic; it would be helpful if posters would specify their answers to these three issues.

Be glad to.
1) No.
2) It means ?bathtub,? and it also means ?shower stall.?
3) This question does not apply.

 

[dnem]

The thread discussions [again IMO] are circling around several topics:
1) Do bathtub stalls exist?
2) Does 406.8(C) mean "bathtub stall and shower stall" or "shower stall and bathtub"?
3) Providing stalls exist and bathtub stalls was meant - how is a bathtub stall defined and what is its footprint.

My answers:
1) Since the exact location of the plug isn't going to impact safety, because it's not required to be 6 feet away, I'll defer to the interpretation of the contractor.
2) Since the exact location of the plug isn't going to impact safety, because it's not required to be 6 feet away, I'll defer to the interpretation of the contractor.
3) Since the exact location of the plug isn't going to impact safety, because it's not required to be 6 feet away, I'll defer to the interpretation of the contractor.

Sorry, I'm just screwing around with you.

I actually agree with everything you said. . The only footnote that I would add is when you referred to the bathtub stalls in your rental units and then described them, you specified that they are walled on three sides.

For references to bathtub stalls just run a web search. You will find plenty of references for modifying, installing, and removing them. I own several rental units that have them and for which no other good english expression applies. A side space walled on three sides, tiled, curtained, and containing only a tub.

I'm not disputing that you have walls on 3 sides of your tubs, I would only add that I would consider a bathtub placed in the corner next to 2 walls as occupying a stall.

David

 

[Mike03a3]

As to the "imaginary" bathtub stall; I have over 50 rental units. Over 15 of them were built with bathtub stalls. Very similar to the picture from post #91 but with tile extending higher.

I never said there was no such thing as a bathtub stall, I said Tubs often (usually?) don't have anything like a "stall". As a matter of fact, I'm the one who posted the picture you refer to. But, that installation is also 25 years old. These days (at least in this area) bathrooms in single family dwellings are often pretty open, unless the tub is intended to be a tub/shower combination.

My assertion still is and always has been that the dedicated area for the bathtub is off limits.

If you're talking about an installation like that picture [post #91], I agree. That's why I posted it in the first place. Not because I think it's a "stall", but because the tub touches the wall on three sides directly under the tile, making the tile and untiled area directly above it over a bathtub and therefore off limits. But, that installation is also 25 years old. These days (at least in this area) bathrooms in single family dwellings are often pretty open, unless the tub is intended to be a tub/shower combination.

For the OP post: If we replace the tub and deck with a ball and claw tub then are you willing to install an outlet at hammer height? The kids will love splashing water over the rim into that one.

Forget hammer height, please identify the boundaries of the "dedicated area for the bathtub" that are off limits in this photo to receptacles at any height? Just so we're clear, I wouldn't have put the receptacle where it is in the OP with the existing tub. But I don't see how the code forbids it.

For post #91: If I extend the tiling up and replace the one piece with a rimmed tub then are you willing to put an outlet in the corner where it is outside the edge of the tub? Your arguments for placement say this is within code.

If I am willing or not is beside the point. The question is: is such an installation permitted by the code as written? In the case of the OP, if you draw a vertical line down from the right edge of the receptacle, then extend the line into a plane at 90 degrees to the wall, no part of the tub would penetrate that plane. How is the receptacle "over the tub" by any definition?

 

[Mike03a3]

I agree.

Good summary. These are essential elements of much of the debate


Be glad to.
1) No.
2) It means ?bathtub,? and it also means ?shower stall.?
3) This question does not apply.

I agree with Charlie

 

[M. D.]

6' ?? yeah much safer with extension cords all over the floor :-?

As far a the NEC goes there is no such thing as a bathtubstall

David ,.what you are describing is an area surrounding the bathtub If that area is not directly over the bathtub it is fair game,,, call it what ever you want to,. as long as you don't call it a violation.

 

[pfalcon]

I agree.

Good summary. These are essential elements of much of the debate


Be glad to.
1) No.
2) It means ?bathtub,? and it also means ?shower stall.?
3) This question does not apply.

Thanks for the response Charlie, Mike. Though we are 180 out of phase on our opinions I think we would all agree that clearer text in the code would be good on this issue. A simple reversal of order really would have made it clear. I doubt we would be debating "shower or bathtub stall" as a shower not having a stall. Nor do I think we would debate "shower stall or bathtub".

So until something more defined comes along I expect I'll see the two of you rolling the house up on its side, dropping a plumb bob off the tub, and then having at it.

P.S. Yes, a lot of my property with the side area for a bathtub are older homes. They were meant for large families with one bathroom that believed in a little privacy. I saw a house where, if you stood in the double wide, doorless entry to the bedroom; then you could look straight across through the double wide, doorless entry to the bathroom; to look at the throne on a small pedestal facing you. Some things should remain private. :grin:

 

[Mike03a3]

First of all because "bathtub stalls" exist. Second because of its, IMO, probable use in 406.8(C)

For references to bathtub stalls just run a web search. You will find plenty of references for modifying, installing, and removing them.

Exist? Sure, I'll accept that. But not as common as you seem to imply. I did google bathtub stall and got ?about 255,000? results. Wow, impressive. BUT, they are overwhelmingly not about ?bathtub stalls?, but instead are pages that contain both the words ?bathtub? and ?stall?, but not necessarily ?bathtub stall?. Google ?bathtub stall? and suddenly you only get ?about 584 results?. That?s a big difference! And three of the 584 are from this thread!!!! Even then, the actual wording is often something like ?bathroom with bathtub, stall shower and sink?, ?Bathtub - stall shower next to bath? or ?Bathtub/Stall /Shower?. Those are just from the first page, which contains:

• A DIY plumbing question about ?Water is somehow getting between the tub and stall door? (which is probably your garden variety tub with sliding shower door like I have in my house.)
• A graphic of an artist?s conception of a bathtub stall including shower curtain.
• A reference to ?bathtub, stall shower and sink?
• A link to this thread!! (page 5)
• A reference to ?Bathtub - stall shower next to bath?
• A reference to ?Bathtub/Stall /Shower?
• A reference to ?bathtub stall?, but I should point out it?s in Hungary.
• A patent appeal that uses the term ?bathtub stall?
• and 10. are both references to the Patent you also linked. The link is actually to a site that has an abstract that uses the term ?bathtub stall?, but in the context of a tub/shower since the patent is for a shower curtain support rod. It also uses the word ?shower? five times in two sentences.

If I actually look at the pages, a lot of those "bathtub stalls" getting modified, installed or removed turn out to be one-piece fiberglass tub/shower combinations.

Yup. I concede they exist. I even posted a picture of a tub that could perhaps be reasonably described as in a tub stall. But compare the relatively few hits for "bathtub stall" with over a million hits for "shower stall"!!! I would not leap to the conclusion it's all that common a term of art for a tub without a shower, with or without surrounding wall(s). I don't think it's common enough that the panel meant bathtub stall.

 

[Mike03a3]

Thanks for the response Charlie, Mike. Though we are 180 out of phase on our opinions I think we would all agree that clearer text in the code would be good on this issue.

No argument here - but if they rewrote the code, and included an Oxford English Dictionary sized appendix of definitions, we'd have nothing to joust about. What fun would that be?

So until something more defined comes along I expect I'll see the two of you rolling the house up on its side, dropping a plumb bob off the tub, and then having at it.

As I've said, I would never have put that particular receptacle in that location in the first place, and thankfully (for me) I'm not an inspector so I don't have to cut babies in half. I'll add this one to the list of things I torment my brother-in-law with. He's a master electrician who became a county inspector. I've tried to get him on here, but I have to settle for bringing him situations like this to chew on. Sometimes he takes them to work so he can start a fight around the water cooler.

then you could look straight across through the double wide, doorless entry to the bathroom; to look at the throne on a small pedestal facing you. Some things should remain private. :grin:

We have now achieved TOTAL agreement!

 

[M. D.]

As I've said, I would never have put that particular receptacle in that location in the first place, and thankfully (for me) I'm not an inspector so I don't have to cut babies in half.

OH NO ,..Easty is going to bust a nut when he sees this one,.. Inspectors cutting babies in half , :wink:

 

[electricmanscott]

OH NO ,..Easty is going to bust a nut when he sees this one,.. Inspectors cutting babies in half , :wink:

Nah, it's only horses that we care about, as evidenced by the outrage over TR receptacles to protect children. :grin:

Oh yeah...bathtub stall I love when people make up words to bolster their argument on a code issue.