Bath receptacle in bathtub space???

[dnem]

David the tubstall was kinda a joke there the word stall describes the shower the use of the word "or" indicates a choice between the two a bathtub or a shower stall.

I understand that is your interpretation

 

[sandsnow]

how about this tub;



Can a receptacle be located in the wall along the side of the tub? YES. It is permitted by Code. In no way is it directly over the tub.

How safe or unsafe is it? Everybody's opinion will differ. Fight for what you believe.

 

[lpelectric]

to dnem:
I can certainly understand where you're coming from. The hazard associated with the location of the receptacle noted in this thread is not lessened any measureable amount by being an inch or two outside the "footprint". In fact as long as a cord from a cord-and-plug-connected appliance is of sufficient length to enable the appliance to fall into the water-filled tub with a person bathing, the word "footprint" is a seemingly careless word.
My only point is with the way that a word is examined for precision. The wording "directly over the tub" as has been bantered around in this thread seems to be favored by most of the posters.

I live in my own little world and my electricians nearly all agree with my "interpretation" which I have been using for years, which by the way is not well received on this site.

I'll high light the way I read it:

406.8(C)Bathtub and shower space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.
(We are talking here of receptacles and where they are not permitted to be installed)

406.8(C)Bathtub and shower space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.
(This is the way this sentence is constructed. The word "or" denotes a choice.)

To construct the sentence this way would not be logical:
406.8(C)Bathtub and shower space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

Perhaps it would have been better to have worded it this way, but the CMP has not done so:
406.8(C)Bathtub and shower space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub enclosure or shower stall.

So, point being, the "common sense" "safe" way is IMHO this "interpretation":

406.8(C)Bathtub and shower space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.
(This is the way this sentence is constructed. The word "or" denotes a choice in two locations within the sentence.)
:smile:

 

[dnem]

how about this tub;



Can a receptacle be located in the wall along the side of the tub? YES. It is permitted by Code. In no way is it directly over the tub.

How safe or unsafe is it? Everybody's opinion will differ. Fight for what you believe.

I disagree with everything you just said.

"Can a receptacle be located in the wall along the side of the tub?"
NO. It is not permitted by Code. . Of course, I agree that is my interpretation of 406.8(C).

"How safe or unsafe is it?"
I don't think opinions will differ. . I think everybody knows it won't make a bit of difference when it comes to safety. . If you want a minimal level of safety that's up and over the GFCI function, then the code would need to specify a measurement that would remove plugged in objects from falling into the tub.

Of course anybody can just go get an extension cord. . But those that do that are just removing their stupid genes from the genepool.

"Fight for what you believe."
But if I believe that it doesn't matter how you apply 406.8(C), then what should I fight for ?

I believe the stupid should be removed from the gene pool so we should offer free extension cords to every knucklehead that we talk to each day. . How about that ? . Is that good enough to fight for ?

David

 

[Mike03a3]

I live in my own little world

You may get some agreement for a change . . .

406.8(C)Bathtub and shower space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.
(This is the way this sentence is constructed. The word "or" denotes a choice.)

No, that's the way you choose to interpret it. It says what it says.

406.8(C)Bathtub and shower space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

Don't try and link words on opposite sides of the "or".

Perhaps it would have been better to have worded it this way, but the CMP has not done so:
406.8(C)Bathtub and shower space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub enclosure or shower stall.

So, point being, the "common sense" "safe" way is IMHO this "interpretation": <snip>

If I was going to use a common sense interpretation, I'd be more inclined to point to the CMP's use of "footprint". But is doesn't matter, because it says what it says.

"Directly over a bathtub" doesn't require an "interpretation", a plumb bob will reveal the answer. Neither does within or directly over a shower stall. They tend to have a pretty clear demarcation.

If you don't agree with directly over the tub, please tell us how many inches from the edge of the tub must a receptacle be in order to pass inspection in your world? Tubs often (usually?) don't have anything like a "stall", so what is your standard?

 

[M. D.]

To David and Ipelectric All I can say is,... Good grief:smile:

If you don't like what it says propose a change ,.. be prepared and have a measurement in mind .. Directly over means what it means whether you like it or not and the panel knows they can be right up to that boarder between over and directly over

 

[lpelectric]

Oh, My! Just finished reading the whole thread over. Hurt my throat swallowing so darned hard!
Anybody have a good recipe for CROW ?????

Is it better if it's washed down with a dose of HUMILITY ?????

Sorry, fellas. i was wrong :grin:

 

[hillbilly]

I have another question for the members who believe that the OP's picture is a compliant installation......that the receptacle is not over the tub...

Does 406.8(D) (in your interpretation) allow you to place receptacles around the edge (over the "deck") of a bathtub in any location as long as they are not directly over the inside rim of the tub (vertical line from the maximum outside edge of the water when the tub is full)?

Say that I have a standard bathtub (with 4" deck) and it is installed in a nook that encloses it on 3 sides.
Can I legally install a receptacle in the back wall of the nook?

If you answer is yes....

Do you believe that this is a safe installation?
Do you believe that it meets the intent of the code?
If I was a inspector, would you expect me to sign off on this installation?

steve

 

[dnem]

To David and Ipelectric All I can say is,... Good grief:smile:

If you don't like what it says propose a change ,.. be prepared and have a measurement in mind .. Directly over means what it means whether you like it or not and the panel knows they can be right up to that boarder between over and directly over

"If you don't like what it says propose a change ,.. be prepared and have a measurement in mind ."
I don't like what is says and I'd be very happy with a 6' measurement.

"Directly over means what it means whether you like it or not and the panel knows they can be right up to that boarder between over and directly over"
It's not defining "directly over" that I have a problem with. . It's not defining "stall" that I have a problem with. . It's the fact that no matter how you define 406.8(C), you still end up with plugs next to the water and therefore 406.8(C) has a marginal impact on safety.

As someone brought out before, we have to stay 6' away from the swimming pool, even with the pool motor plug itself and even tho it's a twist lock.

If you read 406.8(C) and then 680.22(A)(1) you wonder what's going on. . CMP17 and CMP18 obviously don't think alike.

David

 

[pfalcon]

Don't try and link words on opposite sides of the "or".

Why not? If I told you I thought the short was in the washer or dryer outlet then you most certainly would link outlet to washer. It is extremely common to do so. Please don't impose silly grammatical rules. English is silly enough. And if you insist on doing so then please let me know what I'm not supposed to install the receptacle within? Since I can't cross an "or" then the sentence terminates and can't apply to either a tub or shower.

As to the "imaginary" bathtub stall; I have over 50 rental units. Over 15 of them were built with bathtub stalls. Very similar to the picture from post #91 but with tile extending higher.

www.freepatentsonline.com/5662297.html << Curtain rod for bathtub stalls
http://www.stretcher.com/stories/990927b.cfm << Replacing bathtub stall with double shower stall.

Feel free to look up more references yourself with Google. Just because you don't believe in Santa Clause doesn't mean there are no bathtub stalls. And yes people buy the curtain rods for privacy in households where you don't get to take a bath in peace. Tiling high is done in case someone wants to add the Swedish Hand Shower. And if you think adding a hand sprayer makes it a shower please let me know if you have your house guests shower under the kitchen window :grin: and take pictures please :grin:

Does this mean I think the outlet must be some minimum distance from the tub? Emphatically NO! The decision that M.D. repeatedly quotes states clearly that microns outside the envelope is generous. Oh yes, it repeatedly uses phrases that jump the "or".

My assertion still is and always has been that the dedicated area for the bathtub is off limits.

For the OP post: If we replace the tub and deck with a ball and claw tub then are you willing to install an outlet at hammer height? The kids will love splashing water over the rim into that one.

For post #91: If I extend the tiling up and replace the one piece with a rimmed tub then are you willing to put an outlet in the corner where it is outside the edge of the tub? Your arguments for placement say this is within code. What happens when they add the Swedish Hand Shower? (Other than delighting Dnem and the rest of the gene pool =)

*sigh* glad I like barbecue.

 

[M. D.]

The code panel had this to say ,.. If 3' doesn't make the cut ,..good luck with twice the distance.

Substantiation:​

​

​

The word area is much needed clarification in this section
for consistency. Section 410.4(D) is not a definition. It is more appropriate to
use dimensions and use the word ?zone? as this word is used in the rule twice.
This is only an editorial adjustment to the proposed new FPN. I agree with theconcept of this proposal.​

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement:​

​

​

The panel recognizes that there is inconsistency between
the wording used in 406.8(C) and 410.4(D). This inconsistency is intentional
to differentiate the requirements for receptacles from the requirements for luminaires.
The panel does not agree that receptacles need to be installed 3 feet away from the outer edge of a tub or shower. In many instances, especially in thesmaller apartment sized bathrooms, it would be impossible to install a receptacle beyond 3 feet from the edge of the tub. It should be noted that receptacles installed in bathrooms are required to be GFCI protected whereas luminaires are not.
The panel agrees that receptacles shall not be installed within the footprint of a tub or shower from floor to ceiling.​

Number Eligible to Vote:​

​

​

10​

Ballot Results:​

​

​

Affirmative: 10​

_____________________________________________________________​

 

[M. D.]

Please read this link first question,. then realize they did add clarification with the directly over bit ,..
The installation in the original picture is compliant ,.. I would not recommend that location myself but saying that I have a receptacle within 10" of my tub/shower ,...I have never been tempted to bathe with a radio floating around with me:smile:

 

[Chris6245]

If you were an inspector how would you call this one? Bath tub is to the right. And if you had to move the receptacle where would you put it?

My first picture I hope it works.

I see this as NOT above the tub. Say I was in the tub and had a bottle of shampoo...I just poured some on my head and set the bottle down BEHIND the faucet. Did I set the bottle "Above" the tub? No it's BEHIND the faucet that is NEXT to the tub (as it is not part of the tub). So now the outlet is ABOVE the bottle that is BEHIND the faucet that is NEXT to the tub.










P.S. By the way, isn't that receptacle upside down? :grin:

 

[wbalsam1]

......P.S. By the way, isn't that receptacle upside down? :grin:

The ground is below the hot & neutral prongs which are above the bottle which is behind the faucet which is next to the tub which is not a part of the faucet which is adjacent to the lav which is beside the tub which is probably across from the toilet which is next to the paper holder which is on the wall above the magazine rack which is partially full of well read electrical magazines.

 

[quogueelectric]

what if ??

what if ??

You automatically switched it off when water was in the tub??

 

[M. D.]

forgot to post the dang link in #172:roll:

http://ceenews.com/mag/electric_code_guide_16/index.html

 

[frizbeedog]

"Energizer Bunny" Thread.

"Energizer Bunny" Thread.

You automatically switched it off when water was in the tub??

That's Cool. How would You do that?

That would kick this thread into high gear. :grin:

What did I miss. Save me from having to go back and read the whole thing.

Cliff Notes please...

 

[quogueelectric]

water level switch

water level switch

Low voltage just like some hottubs have to make sure the tub is not empty. Remotely shutting off the power to the outlet until the tub is once again empty Therefore eliminating the shock hazzard.

 

[frizbeedog]

Good Idea

Good Idea

Low voltage just like some hottubs have to make sure the tub is not empty. Remotely shutting off the power to the outlet until the tub is once again empty Therefore eliminating the shock hazzard.

Activated how? What closes the contact?

If you could work your way around the code....? Hey I'm just saying, what if.

So shoot me. I'm a dreamer. :grin:

 

[sandsnow]

P.S. By the way, isn't that receptacle upside down? :grin:

LMAO!
THAT"S IT !!!!!!!!
It's so simple I can't believe I didn't see it before!!!!

All you have to do is reverse the receptacle. Ground up solves everything.