Best route to run feeders from ATS back to main panel

Location
Texas
Occupation
electrical Code instructor and mentor
That seems backwards. If you do switch the neutral, then it is a separately derived service. Also, who said the neutral was being switched?
Yes, that's correct about switching the neutral conductor.
The grounded(neutral) conductor is not switched at the ATS.
It is solidly connected there on the terminal bar.
The phase conductors are switched in the ATS.
 
Location
Texas
Occupation
electrical Code instructor and mentor
No one has said, or shown that the OP's ATS is switching the neutral. That would not be a separately derived system. Most ATS for residential are just 2-pole and do not switch the neutral.
I've figured out my route that I'm going to take. It's nec compliant. Nothing wrong with it. But not the way I truly want to do it. The way I wanted to do it would take too long to be able to have a disconnect, inspection, and reconnect all in 1 day.

As far as I know, I believe I saw it somewhere in the manual, Generac doesn't warranty the ATS if you make a top penetration.
2023 NEC
Section 110.3(B) Installation and Use If your equipment is as stated in the NEC, then do not violate the MFGs instructions by entering from the top of the enclosure.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
The inspector is right because the generator in this case is not a separately derived service because the neutral will be switched in the ATS.


Thanks for reading.
Comments accepted.
TX+MASTER#4544
Let's see if we can help you with your understanding of a SDS

A SDS will have the neutral switched in the ATS, see the illustration below.
1716561160324.png



Now let's look at a Non-SDS

1716561207324.png

You had it in reverse. When the neutral and it's earthing is not common to both systems, the auxiliary source (generator, UPS, solar, etc...) is a Separately Derived System. If the neutral and it's earthing is common to both systems the auxiliary system is a Non-SDS
 

Birken Vogt

Senior Member
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
Or learn how to make your conduits and entries watertight when necessary.
The reason I posted this is from experience, a very respected local electric company ran EMT into the top of a transfer switch, nothing wrong with the conduit I could see, but years later the painters came and pressure washed the building before painting, a month after that I was out there picking washed down old lube particles out of the switch mechanism. They could have just as easily LB'ed into the side/bottom as landed straight in the top, the water intrusion did not come from the hub or anything nearby, it came from further up the conduit.

Most electrical enclosures have only splices and stuff that is fairly tolerant of a little water but transfer switches are too delicate to take that risk. No top penetrations, none.
 
The reason I posted this is from experience, a very respected local electric company ran EMT into the top of a transfer switch, nothing wrong with the conduit I could see, but years later the painters came and pressure washed the building before painting, a month after that I was out there picking washed down old lube particles out of the switch mechanism. They could have just as easily LB'ed into the side/bottom as landed straight in the top, the water intrusion did not come from the hub or anything nearby, it came from further up the conduit.

Most electrical enclosures have only splices and stuff that is fairly tolerant of a little water but transfer switches are too delicate to take that risk. No top penetrations, none.
I agree it is generally best practice to avoid top entries into something that has lots of "stuff" in it like an ATS. EMT compression fittings often leak no matter how careful one is. That said, personally, i am confident I could do the install the OP has without issue due to the short length and by choosing the proper fittings and materials.
 
Location
Texas
Occupation
electrical Code instructor and mentor
RE: my posts 12,14,16, about switching or not switching the neutral for a SDS.

When the neutral (grounded) conductor is switched at the ATS, it is a separately derived system.

When the neutral conductor is solidly terminated at the ATS it is not a separately derived system.
The neutral conductor is not switched because it is solidly terminated.

There are two exhibits in my 2023 NEC Handbook of the two (SDS) systems and it is actually very simple to understand.
They are actually a little more in detail than your two images.

Readers of my posts: Sorry if I may have confused you.

Comments accepted.
Thanks for reading.
TX+MASTER#4544
 
RE: my posts 12,14,16, about switching or not switching the neutral for a SDS.

When the neutral (grounded) conductor is switched at the ATS, it is a separately derived system.

When the neutral conductor is solidly terminated at the ATS it is not a separately derived system.
The neutral conductor is not switched because it is solidly terminated.

There are two exhibits in my 2023 NEC Handbook of the two (SDS) systems and it is actually very simple to understand.
They are actually a little more in detail than your two images.

Readers of my posts: Sorry if I may have confused you.

Comments accepted.
Thanks for reading.
TX+MASTER#4544
Why don't you focus on actually answering the OP's question rather than blabbering on about a bunch of irrelevant stuff and getting a bunch of that stuff wrong?
 

RBrown504

Member
Location
Louisiana
Occupation
I & E Tech
2023 NEC
Section 110.3(B) Installation and Use If your equipment is as stated in the NEC, then do not violate the MFGs instructions by entering from the top of the enclosure.
Correct, I am not and never thought about coming through the top of the ATS. A neighbor of mine had a supposedly reputable generator company (also who installed my parents but not near as bad) install theirs last year and they came through the top of the ATS. I'll post a picture but it's an all around awful install.

While I have everyone here, the generator I have was at my grandmothers house that passed away 3 months ago. I ordered all material before I had hands on the generator due to other circumstances. But when I set the genset, it had a 1 1/2 knockout and I used 1 1/4 conduit with reducing washers. Now I'm thinking that I may have to seal that knockout and knockout a new one unless the reducing washers are code compliant on the generator enclosure?

Picture attached is the neighbors install.
 

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RBrown504

Member
Location
Louisiana
Occupation
I & E Tech
For what it's worth this is what I have installed. Will finish conduit sleeve and SER run this weekend and then waiting on disconnect/reconnect day this Wednesday to finish the terminations.

Ignore the fiber APA riser. It's going to get moved to make way for an LB and conduit and the fiber reburied after the plumbers trench and complete the gas line Wednesday.
 

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RBrown504

Member
Location
Louisiana
Occupation
I & E Tech
I agree it is generally best practice to avoid top entries into something that has lots of "stuff" in it like an ATS. EMT compression fittings often leak no matter how careful one is. That said, personally, i am confident I could do the install the OP has without issue due to the short length and by choosing the proper fittings and materials.
Pardon me, new so not sure how to reply to multiple people in one post.

No doubt, I know it can be made water tight doing it the correct way. But top entry voids the warranty all together.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
There are two exhibits in my 2023 NEC Handbook of the two (SDS) systems and it is actually very simple to understand.


Comments accepted.
Thanks for reading.
TX+MASTER#4544
Next time it might behoove you to spend a little time studying the information available before making incorrect statements.
 
.

While I have everyone here, the generator I have was at my grandmothers house that passed away 3 months ago. I ordered all material before I had hands on the generator due to other circumstances. But when I set the genset, it had a 1 1/2 knockout and I used 1 1/4 conduit with reducing washers. Now I'm thinking that I may have to seal that knockout and knockout a new one unless the reducing washers are code compliant on the generator enclosure?
I don't see an issue with the reducing washers. The general rule is that conduit entries do not need to be watertight if they are below the level of uninsulated live parts (technically that is in article 312 and not everything is an article 312 enclosure). I use RW's all the time. Where things have concentric or eccentric knockouts, I usually rip them all out and use reducing washers cuz I hate ringed KO's
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Maybe move meter lower (if POCO will allow it) and place transfer switch above and use same nipple through the wall for feed to inside panel?

I don't normally need to worry about same day inspections for continuity of service either though
 

RBrown504

Member
Location
Louisiana
Occupation
I & E Tech
I got stuck on this...

Austin, Huffman, Hammond Manufacturing, all make a lot of various electrical enclosures.
Yeah I found some hoffman oversized covers. But am going a different route.
Maybe move meter lower (if POCO will allow it) and place transfer switch above and use same nipple through the wall for feed to inside panel?

I don't normally need to worry about same day inspections for continuity of service either though
They require the center of the meter at 6ft. Yeah, one they disconnect the service they require an inspection and the inspector has to send them the okay to reconnect.




Side note. Am I reading 312.5 properly? Is it a violation to LB out the right side of the enclosure towards the bottom and sleeve 5 feet up into the soffit with 2" conduit?
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Am I reading 312.5 properly? Is it a violation to LB out the right side of the enclosure towards the bottom and sleeve 5 feet up into the soffit with 2" conduit?
No, but it is a violation to do so without securing cables either to the enclosure or to the end of the sleeve (maybe that would be easier to do with a box at the end of the conduit, so it's no longer a sleeve).

And of course as this is outdoors, NM cable is not permitted inside the conduit.

Cheers, Wayne
 

RBrown504

Member
Location
Louisiana
Occupation
I & E Tech
No, but it is a violation to do so without securing cables either to the enclosure or to the end of the sleeve (maybe that would be easier to do with a box at the end of the conduit, so it's no longer a sleeve).

And of course as this is outdoors, NM cable is not permitted inside the conduit.

Cheers, Wayne
I don't really have the room for a box. I had to throw a 45 on the sleeve. I'm not really fond of how close it is to the roof decking though.
 

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yeah I found some hoffman oversized covers. But am going a different route.

They require the center of the meter at 6ft. Yeah, one they disconnect the service they require an inspection and the inspector has to send them the okay to reconnect.




Side note. Am I reading 312.5 properly? Is it a violation to LB out the right side of the enclosure towards the bottom and sleeve 5 feet up into the soffit with 2" conduit?
What about meter centers at multiple occupancies? Pedestal type equipment with single meters are never that tall either.
Min and max height makes more sense to me. But with smart meters being pretty common it is getting to where some aren't as picky about meter location as they used to be. Most still want reasonable access to them for when they do need servicing
 
What about meter centers at multiple occupancies? Pedestal type equipment with single meters are never that tall either.
Min and max height makes more sense to me. But with smart meters being pretty common it is getting to where some aren't as picky about meter location as they used to be. Most still want reasonable access to them for when they do need servicing
I would be surprised if they required single meters to be 6 ft, that seems quite high to me. Usually I see 5 ft plus or minus as a spec I'd be real surprised if they didn't provide a range.
 
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