Big oops ... need suggestions

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine:
At a switch, current might be "taken" to supply the switch,

Current can't supply a switch. It is a device intended to carry or control but not utilize electric energy.

Hey!!

I just noted that the Article 100 Definition of Device was changed substantially in 2005!!! The definition has has little editorial things done since the definition was first introduced in the 1940 NEC. BUT, in 2005 "or control" was added.

This web, this net just gets finer and better at catching all the meaning.

 

[iwire]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine:

Originally posted by iwire:
Is a duplex receptacle an outlet when nothing is plugged into it?

Yes! However, a switch is neither taking nor returning current when it is open.

Neither does an receptacle when nothing is plugged in.

Truthfully when I typed my post it struck me that outlets not in use are not actually outlets.

Boy does that open a can of worms.

It would have to be written like this.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current may be taken to supply utilization equipment.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

umm,
Seems to be a hot thread.Started reading up to page six,and then -yawned-.

But getting back to the solution of the current installation,and taking in consideration point that Larry Fine made.

This bed room was on top floor,more than likely attic space.Which brings me to a basic solution, that I have used in same installations in commercial occupancies.(*the afterthought)

Drill sheetrock ceiling with 1 1/8 holesaw,extend a (threaded) stem from fan,(useing the fan excussion cup on the stem next to ceiling)and mount threaded mallable box/hubs above ceiling in attic space,support box.Back threads with locknut or drill/tap box hub with set-screw.

*No new outlet in bedroom,on the existing branch circuit, the 210.12(B)senario is solved, in this installation..

noted: I've been known use conduit bodies too..

[ October 25, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

dillon you are not actually trying to answer the original question are you?

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

awl,
I sorry..I just peeked into the thread..Guess I should have continued to read..

Oh well.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
Current can't supply a switch. It is a device intended to carry or control but not utilize electric energy.

Who are you and what did you do with the guy we've been arguing with???

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie B,

I have attempted to answer your question.

May I ask you: "What does wiring look like, to you, that so clearly differentiates the conductive path inside a snap switch from all the other physical configurations of conductive paths that the NEC allows that you WILL call wiring?" Cannot wiring be manufactured in the little ribbon pieces (pardon my lack of technical jargon here) that are used in a snap switch?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine:

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
Current can't supply a switch. It is a device intended to carry or control but not utilize electric energy.

Who are you and what did you do with the guy we've been arguing with???


At the light switch, the current taken from the premises wiring going to the switch is taken by the luminaire, and, because the definition of Outlet does not specify a PHYSICAL location of the utilization equipment, that current taken at the switch is indistinguishable from the current taken at the luminaire.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: May I ask you: "What does wiring look like, to you, that so clearly differentiates the conductive path inside a snap switch from all the other physical configurations of conductive paths . . . .

Since the definition began with a discussion of interior and exterior wiring (and some associated stuff), and since the second sentence begins with "such wiring," I would say that in this context "wiring" is "wires" (if you will also pardon my use of non-technical jargon).

It is very obvious that a phrase like "interior and exterior wiring" would never refer to the conductive parts inside a switch. So the definition would not try to exclude them.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie B.,

Where does busway figure in?

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

AL, you said this a while back ...

"The definition of Outlet only involves current, premises wiring and utilization equipment."

The word "premises" is not in the definition of outlet.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mark,

I answered you here.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: Charlie B., Where does busway figure in?

I'd stay within my non-technical jargon, and lump it in with "wires." It shares the characteristic that its sole purpose is to be the path for current to flow from one physical location to another.

I would not, by counter-example, lump a "switch" in with "wires," because it does not share that same purpose. The conductive materials within a switch perform the function of permitting or interrupting current flow. They are not there to bring current from a spot on one wall to a spot in the ceiling. Other things, namely "wiring," does that job. So the conductive materials within a switch are neither "wires" nor "wiring."

 

[steve66]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

A thread of 432 posts by jeff43222 was just too weird. So I'll make it 433.

And now I've taken part of the longest thread in Mike Holt history

Steve

 

[roger]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Let's add Dictionary.com and Princeton's WordNet? to the support of a switch not being an outlet.

Notice switch is not used in the definitions for electrical oulet at all.

Roger

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by roger:
Notice switch is not used in the definitions for electrical oulet at all.
Who wants to go get a milkshake?

 

[peter d]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Wow, I'm away from the forum for a few days and this thing is up to 435 posts, and still no closer to being resolved. So I guess it's business as usual around here.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Welcome back Peter

Let?s take little different look at this discussion of an outlet. My thoughts of today wouldn?t leave a motor circuit.

From the service or other panel to a motor we install a feeder to a disconnect. From the disconnect to the controller and then to the motor. From the disconnect to the controller we install branch circuits and install branch circuits from the controller to the motor.

Applying the same rules of defining an outlet one of two things must take place here.

Either the box on the motor is the outlet of this circuit based on the fact that the NEC mandates the installation all the way to the motor,

Or

The disconnect and controller are outlets. If they are outlets then it is possible that the switch is also an outlet as outlined in 430.111

430.111 Switch or Circuit Breaker as Both Controller and Disconnecting Means.
A switch or circuit breaker shall be permitted to be used as both the controller and disconnecting means

Give me some help here?

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Device

A unit of an electrical system that is intended to carry but not utilize electric energy.
or

A device can be taken to mean:
electrical device designed to carry power, but not use it

Outlet

A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

Receptacle

A receptacle is a contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug. A single receptacle is a single contact device with no other contact device on the same yoke. A multiple receptacle is two or more contact devices on the same yoke.



Receptacle Outlet

An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.

Switch -- A device for making, breaking, or changing the connections in an electric current.

Switch, General-Use

switch intended for use in general distribution and branch circuits. It is rated in amperes, and it is capable of interrupting its rated current at its rated voltage.

Switch, General-Use Snap

A form of general-use switch constructed so that it can be installed in device boxes or on box covers, or otherwise used in conjunction with wiring systems recognized by the National Electrical Code (NEC).

this last bit is from Mark Ode


With this new change applying to all 125V, single-phase, 15 and 20A outlets within a dwelling unit
bedroom, determining where AFCI protection applied was not as simple and easy to accomplish.
Branch circuits for smoke detectors, small window air conditioners, ceiling paddle fans,
refrigerators, heaters, and lighting units (luminaires), as well as other outlets throughout the
bedroom, were now required to be AFCI protected. Questions were raised about whether
luminaires in walk-in closets required AFCI protection, which were easily answered by supplying it
from a bedroom circuit already AFCI protected. Since switches are devices, not outlets, a switch
located in a bedroom but supplying luminaire(s) located outside the bedroom area, such as
security lighting or for bathroom lighting, would not require AFCI protection.

AL , I can't find anything , outside of your interpretation , that leads me to believe that a switch is the point on the system where current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

I have to conclude that switches are devices and not outlets.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Someone find that stupid bunny and kill it.going and going and going..................