Big oops ... need suggestions

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Now Al, do the same thing for "switch outlet"

Oh yeah,.. never mind there is no such thing.

For a switch the point that the current leaves the premises wiring is the point it enters the switch.
The definition of premises wiring excludes the internal wiring (components) of the switch.
Then the switch supplies the current to the load that it controls.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

This deal of switches being outlets has been debated from one angle with a lot of off beat definitions thrown in.
I want to look at it in a different way also.
I would appreciate someone addressing my outlook if they would be so kind. I have asked a question after some of these quotes.

2005 code quotes;

410.11 an outlet box that is an integral part of a luminaire (where?)
410.12 each outlet box shall be provided with a cover (what kind of cover to cover what)
334.30 every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting. (switch boxes are exempted?)
250.148 (D) nonmetallic outlet box shall be arranged such that a connection can be made to any fitting or device in that box requiring grounding. (so any fitting or device constitutes an outlet box?)
356.30(1) every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting. (switch boxes are exempted?)
320.30 every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting (switch boxes are exempted?)
517.13(B) Exception No. 1: Metal faceplates shall be permitted to be grounded by means of a metal mounting screw(s) securing the faceplate to a grounded outlet box or grounded wiring device. (switch faceplates don?t require grounding)

Then I saved the best to the very last. I think that this should put this matter to rest once and for all. 680.23(F)(2)(b) or an outlet box used to enclose a snap switch.

Please would someone take the time to address all these outlets outlined by the NEC.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mike,
An "outlet box" has nothing to do with the Article 100 definition of "outlet".
Don

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

how do we go this far and not go anywhere

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

My thinking on this is that the NEC has named each one of these places ?outlet.?

It has named each location as being a box that contains an outlet.

The code clearly is not talking about a junction box as outlined thirty times in the 2005.

250.140 exception the outlet or junction box,
250.32 (D)(3) shall be made in a junction box, panelboard, or similar enclosure
430.254 The junction box required
334.30 of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting.
300.15(B) An integral junction box
artidle 100 conductors in a terminal box
Table 430.12(B) Terminal Housings

The code clearly shows a difference between a box that is used for an outlet and one used for terminals and junctions.
250 and 334 define the two as being separate and different.

If the codes call the box an outlet box who am I to call it different?



Edited to add;
An outlet box can be used as a junction box

[ October 30, 2005, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric:
For a switch the point that the current leaves the premises wiring is the point it enters the switch.

I ask again, then, isn't such a point also an inlet, since the current re-enters the wiring system upon leaving the switch?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Larry,

An "inlet" is not defined as a single word term, and is not a word used in the difinition language of Premises Wiring (System), or Outlet. You seem to be implying that "inlet" is a Service Point?

The following is defined, but it is a three word term.

2005 NEC 625.2 Definitions.
Electric Vehicle Inlet. The device on the electric vehicle into which the electric vehicle connector is inserted for charging and information exchange. This device is part of the electric vehicle coupler. For the purposes of this Code, the electric vehicle inlet is considered to be part of the electric vehicle and not part of the electric vehicle supply equipment.

 

[iwire]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mike,
I think that is just sloppy code, where "field language" has been mixed with "code language". There is nothing in the sections that you have cited that define an "outlet". The only definition of outlet that can be used with the NEC is found in Article 100. The words "outlet box" are trade words for a box. This is just like when the older editions of the NEC permitted 360 degrees of bend between fittings. When that was put into the code, the "trade language" meaning of fitting (conduit body) was used and not the "code language" meaning of fitting which includes couplings.
Don

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I will agree that panel 17 has made its share of mistakes but I have a hard time believing that all the other code panels would follow suit and make the same mistake cycle after cycle.

Using section 680.23(F)(2)(b) (or an outlet box used to enclose a snap switch) tells me that a snap switch or the switch constitutes an outlet. This same terminology is used in 29 different articles in the code. It was used 59 times in the 2002 and 57 times in the 1999 cycles.

I have also been trying to make heads or tails from 210.20(D) and 210,21. Here we are told that a lamp holder is an outlet. Is it part of the fixture itself, yes but it is also an outlet as pointed out here. One outlet where the lamp holder connects to the premises wiring and another at the lamp holder itself.
Why are we hung up on the fact that the only place an outlet can occur is the exact point where it leaves the premise wiring?

Using section 210.21 which states;

210.21 Outlet Devices.
Outlet devices shall have an ampere rating that is not less than the load to be served and shall comply with 210.21(A) and (B).

And the definition of device

Device. A unit of an electrical system that is intended to carry or control but not utilize electric energy.

I am finding it hard to leave a switch out of the outlet category.

As I have pointed out in the pervious posts where I quoted the code and its use of the words ?outlet boxes? it is clear that switches was included in this terminology.

Article 314 Outlet, Device, Pull, and Junction Boxes; Conduit Bodies; Fittings; and Handhole Enclosures, here it makes it very clear that there is a difference between the use of a boxes or conduit bodys.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Mike,
I think that is just sloppy code, where "field language" has been mixed with "code language". There is nothing in the sections that you have cited that define an "outlet". The only definition of outlet that can be used with the NEC is found in Article 100. The words "outlet box" are trade words for a box. This is just like when the older editions of the NEC permitted 360 degrees of bend between fittings. When that was put into the code, the "trade language" meaning of fitting (conduit body) was used and not the "code language" meaning of fitting which includes couplings.
Don

Don,
The way that I understand the adoption of the code by the jurisdictions into law would also adopt the ?sloppy language? along with the good and proper language.

It is not for me to say that the code used sloppy language so that sloppy language don?t apply.
I take the code for what it says and it clearly makes the statement that there are boxes that are outlets with switches installed.

It also points to outlets with nothing but joints installed as outlined 314.42.

Does this term to ?outlet box? point to a slang term? I think not. I think that all those who sit the CMP and the TCC would have caught this before now. I think that it is us that have a hard time accepting what is clear and evident. We just don?t want to accept the fact that an outlet does not need to leave the premise wiring and can even be an outlet that is part of listed equipment.

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

The use of the word "outlet" in 210.12 indicates the point of connection to the utilization equipment. The connection to the device (general use snap switch) does utilize the current therefore there is no outlet at the switch.

Also look in the U.L. white book you will see that a switch is not a device listed to supply , but to controll the flow of current .

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
The use of the word "outlet" in 210.12 indicates the point of connection to the utilization equipment. The connection to the device (general use snap switch) does utilize the current therefore there is no outlet at the switch.

Also look in the U.L. white book you will see that a switch is not a device listed to supply , but to controll the flow of current .

Glad to hear that you have got the UL listing for the switch down to a controlling device.

Now let?s look closely at what the CODE says.

210.21 Outlet Devices.
Outlet devices shall have an ampere rating that is not less than the load to be served and shall comply with 210.21(A) and (B).

Device. A unit of an electrical system that is intended to carry or control but not utilize electric energy.

Now using your own words you have nailed down the fact that the switch is a device which controls as UL has listed.
The code states that a device that controls is an outlet device.

Originally posted by Marc Deschenes
The use of the word "outlet" in 210.12 indicates the point of connection to the utilization equipment. The connection to the device (general use snap switch) does utilize the current therefore there is no outlet at the switch.

The way that I read the definition of device none of them utilize electric energy. This would include the receptacle outlet.

Device. A unit of an electrical system that is intended to carry or control but not utilize electric energy.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mike,
Look at the following from UL's "QCIT.GuideInfo
Metallic Outlet Boxes".

This category covers metallic flush device boxes, conduit bodies, conduit boxes, floor boxes, outlet boxes, special purpose boxes, extension rings, covers, and flush-device cover plates.

The term "outlet box" is a generic term for a box. It has nothing to do with the definition of outlet as found in Article 100. Unless the current goes to the equipment, the point is not an outlet.
Don

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Mike,
Look at the following from UL's "QCIT.GuideInfo
Metallic Outlet Boxes".

This category covers metallic flush device boxes, conduit bodies, conduit boxes, floor boxes, outlet boxes, special purpose boxes, extension rings, covers, and flush-device cover plates.

The term "outlet box" is a generic term for a box. It has nothing to do with the definition of outlet as found in Article 100. Unless the current goes to the equipment, the point is not an outlet.
Don

Now that we have gotten the UL listing of ?outlet box? out of the way lets look at the NEC?s take on the term.

UL list the box for the use of an outlet.

The NEC points to this box as being used as an outlet on several different occasions. You are trying to say that the code meant that this box is universal in use.
As I read the words I see that the code is referring to an outlet located at that box.
As used in other places in the code, why would they not just use the term ?junction box??

What I see happing here is, you are trying to change the words that the CMP choose to use to mean what you want them to mean.
What I am trying to do is use the words that the CMP used as they were printed.
Which one of us are right?

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mike , a switch is not a device listed to be installed at an outlet . If the switch had a pilot light you would have an argument. The outlet is at the light not at the switch.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Mike , a switch is not a device listed to be installed at an outlet . If the switch had a pilot light you would have an argument. The outlet is at the light not at the switch.

Then explain the definition of device.

Device. A unit of an electrical system that is intended to carry or control but not utilize electric energy.

Does it not clearly state, ?that is intended to control but not utilize?.

Where are you getting that it is required to utilize the current?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Mike , a switch is not a device listed to be installed at an outlet . If the switch had a pilot light you would have an argument. The outlet is at the light not at the switch.

When referring to an outlet there is no argument that a receptacle is an outlet that I have heard as yet.

Receptacle Outlet. An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.

What is a receptacle? Does it utilize current? Is it a point that leaves the premise wiring?

Is it a device? Does it carry current? Does it fit the definition of device?

Device. A unit of an electrical system that is intended to carry or control but not utilize electric energy.

Does not a switch fit this same definition?

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

The connection to the switch is just that , a connection.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
The connection to the switch is just that , a connection.

You won?t get any argument out of me on that.

The question I have is just what is this switch we are connecting to. Could it be a device? If so would this not be an outlet as defined by the definition of device and outlet?


[ October 31, 2005, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]