Big oops ... need suggestions

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LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric:

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
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When the current leaves the premise wiring and enters the internal wiring of the controller (switch) the outlet takes place.
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But there is no utilization equipment being supplied here. Switched, yes; supplied, no.
 
jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Does not the switch supply current to the light? Is not the switch the controller for the light?

Premises Wiring (System). That interior and exterior wiring, including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, both permanently and temporarily installed, that extends from the service point or source of power, such as a battery, a solar photovoltaic system, or a generator, transformer, or converter windings, to the outlet(s). Such wiring does not include wiring internal to appliances, luminaires (fixtures), motors, controllers, motor control centers, and similar equipment.
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:)

Edited to get it right

[ October 29, 2005, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 
M

marc deschenes

Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Why does it require an outlet to do so
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I am not sure I understand the question. What do you think constitutes an outlet?

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Click to expand...
When the current leaves the premise wiring and enters the internal wiring of the controller (switch) the outlet takes place.
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I think what you have described is a connection to a wiring device designed to interrupt , not utilize, the current flow.

I would call the point of outlet the connection point to what is causing the current to flow. or the connection to a receptacle outlet.
I ask why a switch requires an outlet to be an outlet because it can't be one by itself.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Originally posted by Larry Fine
Okay, but at the same instant, it also gives the current back into the wiring system. Why isn't it also an inlet?
Click to expand...
Does not the load do the same thing? Will there not be the same current coming out of a light that enters it?
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This is a non-productive use of semantics. Yes, of course, current is the same anywhere in a circuit, but that's not the point, unless you want to apply that to all access points.

Originally posted by Larry Fine
In addition, an outlet is an outlet, regardless of the state of the load, whereas, according to the switch-is-an-outlet-proponents' own definition, the load current's passing through the switch is a prerequisite to its definition.

Therefore, a switch only requires its enclosure to be called an outlet while the load current is flowing. Open the switch and it's no longer an outlet. What is it then? Personally, I find this concept tough to accept. [/qb]
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Why would a switch not be an outlet regardless of the load?
You ask, Open the switch and it's no longer an outlet. What is it then?
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Inquiring minds want to know.

The best way I know to answer this is to ask what the light is when current is no longer flowing. Is it still an outlet? Using your example the light would no longer be an outlet not the receptacle unless current was flowing.
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No, lights and receptacles are located at outlets. As far as I know, nobody has claimed that outlets depend on current flowing at any given instant to qualify.

[ October 29, 2005, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: LarryFine ]
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Not again!

[ October 29, 2005, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: LarryFine ]
 
jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes
I would call the point of outlet the connection point to what is causing the current to flow.
Click to expand...
Is this not just what a switch does?

Originally posted by marc deschenes
I ask why a switch requires an outlet to be an outlet because it can't be one by itself.
Click to expand...
What else is required?

:)
 
jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by Larry Fine
No, lights and receptacles are located at outlets. As far as I know, nobody has claimed that outlets depend on current flowing at any given instant to qualify.
Click to expand...
The NEC does

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Click to expand...
If the light or receptacle are located at the outlet, just what is the outlet?
:)
 
M

marc deschenes

Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Originally posted by marc deschenes
I would call the point of outlet the connection point to what is causing the current to flow.
Click to expand...
Is this not just what a switch does?


Originally posted by marc deschenes
I ask why a switch requires an outlet to be an outlet because it can't be one by itself.
Click to expand...
What else is required?


:)
Click to expand...
No, it controls the current to the point of outlet in this case outside the bedroom

An outlet.
You can't have a circuit of just General use snap switches, there has to be an outlet involved.

[ October 29, 2005, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: marc deschenes ]
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine:
Originally posted by jwelectric:
Originally posted by Larry Fine
Okay, but at the same instant, it also gives the current back into the wiring system. Why isn't it also an inlet?
Click to expand...
Does not the load do the same thing? Will there not be the same current coming out of a light that enters it?
Click to expand...
This is a non-productive use of semantics. Yes, of course, current is the same anywhere in a circuit, but that's not the point, unless you want to apply that to all access points.
Click to expand...
Larry, access points aren't defined as Outlets and they are't listed in the last sentence of Premises Wiring (System).
Originally posted by LarryFine:
lights and receptacles are located at outlets. As far as I know, nobody has claimed that outlets depend on current flowing at any given instant to qualify.
Click to expand...
The definition of Outlet says "current is taken", present tense. Not "will be taken", not "has been taken", not "was taken".

Read the definition of Lighting Outlet and Receptacle Outlet again. Note that the location specified is the "Outlet".

In place of the word "Outlet", in the definition of the two word term "Lighting Outlet", insert the words (all of them) of the definition of "Outlet". Don't insert the words in the two word term, just in the definition where "outlet" is used.

You will read that the location of the Lighting Outlet, then, is "that point on the premises wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment."

The "outlet" at a "Lighting Outlet", nowhere in the definition, is said to be a "box". Rather, it is the connection to the end of the Premises Wiring emerging at the box.

In a "Receptacle Outlet", the outlet happens at the connection of the plug to the inner contacts of the receptacle.

At a hard wired appliance, the outlet occurs at the end of the wiring provided as part of the appliance. Again, while this will happen at a J-box or wiring compartment under a wirenut or terminal, the "outlet" is not the box or compartment, it is the end of the Premises Wiring.

[ October 29, 2005, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]
 
peter d

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

No George, don't hold back! Tell us how you really feel! The next time I see an AFCI breaker, I am going to smash it to pieces!
censored.gif
 
peter d

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Deleted because I think it's allready been covered. :D

[ October 29, 2005, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
 
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