Big oops ... need suggestions

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Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine: Charlie, promise me you'll let me watch you attach that 1/0 to the breaker!
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Hey, I'm just the engineer who designed this thing. I'm not responsible for installation! :D


However, point in fact I do possess a valid Washington State license as an "Elect Trainee." I don't have any work hours credited under that license as yet. But if a WA Journeyman or Master can come here and tell me how to do it, I could work under your supervision. :D :D
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine: Just curious: why the "The circuit comprises no other loads and no other switches." requirement?
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To keep it simple and focused directly at the issue at hand.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

On the way to work this morning, I thought of another good reason to believe that "wires internal to controllers" was not intended to refer to switches, even through switches are sometimes used as controllers.

Look at the current flowing from a panel to a motor controller, and from there to a motor. Within the motor controller, the only thing that the current passes through, on its way to the motor, is the main line contactor. In parallel with that path, current goes through a set of on/off pushbuttons or HOA switches, a remote on/off switch or two, perhaps through the contact of a pressure or level switch, through overload relays, and maybe some other things. There is wiring connecting these pushbuttons and relays and other things. But that wiring does not carry the current that is heading towards the motor. That is why the wiring from the pushbutton to the overload relay does not belong in the category of premises wiring.

By contrast, all of the current passing through a light switch on its way to the light will pass through the internal conductive materials internal to the switch. There is no reason not to include the switch and everything that makes up the switch in the category of premises wiring.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by roger: Charlie, you don't have to change it if you don't want to, but I think the question should include 210.12(B) . . . .
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Good idea. I'll include that, and I'll post the poll now.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
The outlet is a point (not THE point) on the premises wiring that current is taken, current that is to supply utilization equipment.

When a luminaire has a remote switch, the current that supplies the luminaire (utilization equipment) has to be taken at the point of the controller (switch). The switch does not take the current. The luminaire does, as it is the load, the utilization equipment. The luminaire current is not in the premises wiring and it is going to the luminaire while passing through the switch, its just that an additional piece of premises wiring is part of the path.
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"When a luminaire has a remote switch, the current that supplies the luminaire (utilization equipment) has to be taken at the point of the controller (switch). The switch does not take the current. The luminaire does..."

You're contradicting yourself here, it seems to me.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by LarryFine: I'm number one! Guess how I voted! ;)
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No, actually you weren't. Sorry.

As soon as I posted the poll, I cast my vote. Then I checked the results, and saw my own vote posted. I gather that the Poll Master is a bit slow in reporting the number of votes cast.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Premises Wiring (System). That interior and exterior wiring, including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, both permanently and temporarily installed, that extends from the service point or source of power, such as a battery, a solar photovoltaic system, or a generator, transformer, or converter windings, to the outlet(s). Such wiring does not include wiring internal to appliances, luminaires (fixtures), motors, controllers, motor control centers, and similar equipment.
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Does the switch control the light? Yes, it turns it of and on.

Does the switch have parts internal that are not under the rules of the NEC? Yes, they fall under the jurisdiction of a NRTL.

Based o the above questions the inside of the switch is not part of the premise wiring and this is where the current leaves the premise wiring and enters the switch to return to the premise wiring. I understand where Al is coming from, I think.
:)
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mike, you keep going back to this "not under the jurisdiction of the NEC" thing. It is not a relevant consideration. At issue is whether the switch, in its entirety or in relation to any of its constituent parts, is, or is not, covered under the phrase "premises wiring system."

You don't get to say, "it's not covered by the NEC, so it's not in the premises wiring system." Rather, it is the NEC itself that says what is, and what is not, in the premises wiring system. Our discussion is all about understanding what the NEC is telling us.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I voted.

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Roger
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I agree that the NEC mandates what it covers and what it doesn?t cover. This is pointed out here:
Premises Wiring (System). That interior and exterior wiring, including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, both permanently and temporarily installed, that extends from the service point or source of power, such as a battery, a solar photovoltaic system, or a generator, transformer, or converter windings, to the outlet(s). Such wiring does not include wiring internal to appliances, luminaires (fixtures), motors, controllers, motor control centers, and similar equipment.
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Every switch that I have seen has a UL mark on it and is listed by UL. To say that the internal parts of this switch fall under the jurisdiction of the NEC would be to say that the internal wiring of my range also fall under the jurisdiction of the NEC.
We all know that the range is a listed piece of equipment as the switch is listed.
Therefore the internal parts of the switch can not be part of the premise wiring.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric: Every switch that I have seen has a UL mark on it and is listed by UL. To say that the internal parts of this switch fall under the jurisdiction of the NEC would be to say that the internal wiring of my range also fall under the jurisdiction of the NEC.
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The range is not covered by the NEC, so therefore the oven light is not covered. But a switch is addressed in the NEC, so every part of the switch is. If the internal stuff were not there, you would not have a switch.

The NEC won't tell the manufacturer how to build a switch. That is the only manner in which the NEC has no influence on the switch. But once the switch is listed, the NEC will let you install it. Once it is installed, it is part of the wiring system.

A wire nut in a junction box is part of the wiring system. Would you say that the metal twisting thing that grabs the wires is not part of the wiring system? Would you say that the plastic surrounding the metal twisting thing that grabs the wires is not part of the wiring system? You need to look again at the definition of premises wiring system, and in particular at the first sentence. It says "wiring . . plus associated hardware . . . ." It doesn't say that the outer part of the hardware is in and the inner parts are out.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Good afternoon folks,

Charlie,

Thanks for getting the poll up. :)

As you have been thinking about this thread and our discussion overnight, so have I.

I'm going to get two images.

Back in a few minutes.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by Charlie B.:
On the way to work this morning, I thought of another good reason to believe that "wires internal to controllers" was not intended to refer to switches, even through switches are sometimes used as controllers.

Look at the current flowing from a panel to a motor controller, and from there to a motor. Within the motor controller, the only thing that the current passes through, on its way to the motor, is the main line contactor. In parallel with that path, current goes through a set of on/off pushbuttons or HOA switches, a remote on/off switch or two, perhaps through the contact of a pressure or level switch, through overload relays, and maybe some other things. There is wiring connecting these pushbuttons and relays and other things. But that wiring does not carry the current that is heading towards the motor. That is why the wiring from the pushbutton to the overload relay does not belong in the category of premises wiring.
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And why are you talking about motor controllers here? You really need more exposure to the wiring in your bedroom.

But, for the case of illustration, please tell me, PLEASE, that the wiring in this motor controller, made by SquareD, is NOT wiring.

SqDManualStarter.jpg


Charlie, please note that the enclosure shown is not a required part of the motor controller. The controller is available by itself, in a small boxboard container, for installation in any wall case of sufficient volume.

The motor controller is the switch in this case.

Now, I know you are not trying to confuse the discussion about switches used as controllers with switches used as motor controllers.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by Carlie B.:
You need to look again at the definition of premises wiring system, and in particular at the first sentence. It says "wiring . . plus associated hardware . . . ." It doesn't say that the outer part of the hardware is in and the inner parts are out.
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You are correct about this interpretation of the FIRST sentence.

It is the SECOND sentence that says what is out, as Mike is talking about.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie B.:

The definition of Premises Wiring (System) (is) "That . . .wiring. . .together with. . .wiring devises."

Wiring devices ARE "That. . .wiring" (just not ALL of it :) )

We agree on this. You think I wasn't saying this. But I have been from the beginning of this thread.

Now, look at the bold italics below in the quote box:
The definition of Premises Wiring (System) (is) That. . .wiring . . .together with. . .wiring devises. Such wiring does not include wiring internal to controllers.
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Some how, the three uses of "wiring" in this definition are two different things in your mind.

This is a false dichotomy.

"Such wiring" is referring directly to the subject of the first sentence, "That. . .wiring". "Such wiring" is all the wiring between the service point and the outlet(s) as described. And, and this is important, "That. . .wiring" includes the screws and plastic conduit and enclosures and washers and nuts and etc. They are "wiring", "That. . .wiring".

The second sentence invokes "That. . .wiring" with "Such wiring" so it is including the non-conductive bits as well, and says the wiring internal to controllers is not included in "That. . .wiring".

It ultimately doesn't matter WHAT the switch is made of. If it is used as a controller, its INSIDE is not part of "That. . .wiring".
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: And why are you talking about motor controllers here?
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Because that is what I interpret the word to have been meant by the person who wrote it. No need to remind me about the "it says what it says" rule. I wrote that rule. But in support of my position, motor controllers do have interior wiring, and toggle switches do not.
Originally posted by al hildenbrand: But, for the case of illustration, please tell me, PLEASE, that the wiring in this motor controller, made by SquareD, is NOT wiring.
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I copied that image to my computer and enlarged as much as I could, without losing too much image quality. I did not see any wires. So I would say that there is no wiring in that motor controller.

From that I would conclude that the infamous "Sentence Two" was not talking about that specific controller, when it excluded "wiring internal to controllers" from the premise wiring system. Rather, it was talking about other controllers, namely, the ones that have interior wiring.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:

"Such wiring" is referring directly to the subject of the first sentence, "That. . .wiring". "Such wiring" is all the wiring between the service point and the outlet(s) as described.

And, and this is important, "That. . .wiring" includes the screws and plastic conduit and enclosures and washers and nuts and etc. They are "wiring", "That. . .wiring".
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Thank you for clearing this up. I finally see exactly where you are getting this wrong.

It is not "that . . . wiring" that includes the screws and plastic conduit.

It is the "premises wiring system" that includes both "that . . . wiring" AND the screws and plastic conduit.

The "that . . . wiring" part is wires. Just wires.

The "such wiring" refers back to the wires, just the wires.
 
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