Big oops ... need suggestions

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by charlie b:

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: That proves my stance. If the NEC doesn't prohibit it, it is.

Come on, you can do better than that. This isn't about what is "prohibited," and what is not. It is about what is an "outlet," by the NEC's definition, and what is not.

Obfuscation.

If the NEC doesn't prohibit the "conductive materials" inside a plain old snap switch from being wiring, then the "conductive materials" inside a plain old snap switch are part of "such wiring", "The interior and exterior wiring. . ." yada yada.

Edit second " mark on conductive materials - Al

[ October 27, 2005, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by charlie b:

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:

Originally posted by charlie b:
I find that easy.</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">(1) If the switch is part of the wiring system, you don't have to look inside to see how it is constructed.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

The same can be said for all manner of wiring assemblies like cable, cord, receptacles, switchgear, the metal inside insulation that is known as "wire", busway.

And I would say the same for them. Each item on that list is part of the premises wiring system, and I don't have to tear them apart to see if anything inside them would change that fact. Besides, if I did tear some of them apart to look inside, I might void their UL listing.

And cable, cord, wire, busway are clearly wiring.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: Obfuscation.

If the NEC doesn't prohibit the "conductive materials" inside a plain old snap switch from being wiring, . . .

Nothing in the NEC "prohibits" anything from being anything.

The NEC is about safe installation. The NEC prohibits protecting #12 with a 100 amp breaker. But it does not prohibit protecting #1/0 with a 20 amp breaker, so we can do that.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: And cable, cord, wire, busway are clearly wiring.

Yes they are. But nothing inside my "no-frills switch" is wiring.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by charlie b:
Nothing in the NEC "prohibits" anything from being anything.

C'mon. You can do better than that.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by charlie b:
But nothing inside my "no-frills switch" is wiring.

Don't tell me. Show me.

It has to be used within its ratings. Isn't that wiring?

 

[charlie b]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

The NEC doesn't say that the "conductive materials" inside a plain old snap switch are "wiring," so therefore they aren't.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by charlie b:
The NEC is about safe installation. The NEC prohibits protecting #12 with a 100 amp breaker. But it does not prohibit protecting #1/0 with a 20 amp breaker, so we can do that.

And there is something unsafe about the "conductive materials" inside a snap switch being wiring?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by charlie b:
The NEC doesn't say that the "conductive materials" inside a plain old snap switch are "wiring," so therefore they aren't.

Premises Wiring (System) does say that the switch is part of "such wiring".

 

[charlie b]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:

It has to be used within its ratings. Isn't that wiring?

No. A generator has ratings, as does a transformer. They have wires inside them, but a generator is not "wiring," nor is a transformer. Both may be part of a premises wiring system.

A receptacle has ratings. It is not wiring. But it is part of the premises wiring system.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Give'm and inch, they'll take a mile.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: Premises Wiring (System) does say that the switch is part of "such wiring".

No. It says that the wiring internal to controllers is not part of the system.

You need to get one of those stickers that Mike Holt will be publishing soon, based on my soon-to-be-famous rule for reading the NEC. It says what it says. So go back and read it again, and read it as if you were seeing it for the first time.

 

[roger]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Hey, regardless of where or when the ongoing discussion will end, let's take a poll of whether a switch located in a bedroom, yet operating an exterior circuit, say swimming pool lights, needs to be AFCI protected.

I assume the way the

feature works keeps anyone from voting more than once.

Roger

 

[charlie b]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I'm heading away from this computer shortly. So the entire membership should feel free to continue to offer comments and opinions. I'll not be reading them until the morning, and I might just skip this thread.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Roger, I can't get that "New Poll" button that you posted to work.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by charlie b:

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:

It has to be used within its ratings. Isn't that wiring?

No. A generator has ratings, as does a transformer. They have wires inside them, but a generator is not "wiring," nor is a transformer. Both may be part of a premises wiring system.

A receptacle has ratings. It is not wiring. But it is part of the premises wiring system.

This is the perspective that confuses me.

You are talking about specific items that are not mentioned in the list of general sweeping terms in the first sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System).

I look at "Such wiring" at the beginning of the second sentence and see it incorporating the subject of the first sentence. . .wiring. . .which includes switches (as wiring devices). Now, when the phrasing of the second sentence continues "does not include wiring internal. . .", all of a sudden there is subtlety and nuance that permits the distinction of "conductive materials" from "wiring".

There is a HUGE leap you take here, that I can't follow.

I hear your words, it's the leap the appears as a discontinuity.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by roger: let's take a poll

I can do that. It is something that only a Moderator can initiate.

Let me suggest the following wording. Give me any comments on the wording, and I'll post the poll tomorrow morning. If you think we need more choices than just yes or no, let me know what the other choices should be.

PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS NOT THE POLL.
This is just a suggested wording for the poll.

Consider a simple on/off toggle switch that is located in a bedroom. That switch operates a light outside the bedroom. The circuit comprises no other loads and no other switches.

Question: Do you believe that the NEC requires this circuit to have AFCI protection?

YES

or

NO

RULES FOR POLLS
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No other choices will be available.</font>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Each member can vote only one time.</font>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can only find out what the score has been so far after you submit your own vote.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

 

[charlie b]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Al, when the first sentence mentions "interior and exterior wiring," I envision runs of #6 going from service panel to subpanel, and runs of #12 branch circuits. Then when the second sentence says "such wiring does not include wiring internal to controllers," I envision a motor controller mounted on a wall, with pushbuttons, pressure switches, overload relays, and internal wiring that connects all that stuff together.

It is you who is making an illogical leap from the second sentence to the oddly shaped metal internals of a thing that opens and closes a circuit, and that has nothing that even vaguely looks like wiring.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie B.,

The poll you suggest looks good to me.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Have a good night.