- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
. . . . . Post #600!
. . . . . Post #600!
Big oops ... need suggestions
- Thread starter jeff43222
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jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
I am rolling on the floor with excitement
I am rolling on the floor with excitement
marc deschenes
Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
600+ and right back at the begining
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Whoops! Just lost that one into cyberspace.
I'll do it again.
Whoops! Just lost that one into cyberspace.
I'll do it again.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Charlie B.:
I have, from the outset, said that the wiring internal to the switch is not part of the wiring system.
I have not said that the switch is not part of the system (pardon the double negative). Just the wiring internal to the switch, when the switch is used as a controller.
You have been clear to state that there is no wiring inside a switch. . .just conductive material.
Well, for the life of me, I can't get my head around how a "conductive material" that is inside a device that IS part of the wiring system IS NOT wiring.
Well, not really.
Charlie B.:
I have, from the outset, said that the wiring internal to the switch is not part of the wiring system.
I have not said that the switch is not part of the system (pardon the double negative). Just the wiring internal to the switch, when the switch is used as a controller.
You have been clear to state that there is no wiring inside a switch. . .just conductive material.
Well, for the life of me, I can't get my head around how a "conductive material" that is inside a device that IS part of the wiring system IS NOT wiring.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Given the second sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System), I understand exactly the opposite.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
These "conductive materials" are not insubstantial.
Especially in light of 404.14 that gets after the rating, as well as use, of a snap switch.
These "conductive materials" are not insubstantial.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
I find that easy.</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">(1) If the switch is part of the wiring system, you don't have to look inside to see how it is constructed.</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">(2) The definition of premises wiring system includes things that are certainly not "wiring." It includes hardware and fittings, neither of which is "wiring."</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">(3) The "conductive material" inside the "no-frills switch" does not look like wire, and it doesn't do a wire's job. I once said that I would lump Busway with "wiring," even though it doesn't look like wire, for lack of a better category. But it does do the same job as wire, and it is part of the premises wiring system.</font>
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
The "conductive materials can be as substantial as you like, but they are not "wiring." Nothing in 404.14 changes that.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, floats like a duck and paddles like a duck, I say it's a duck.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, floats like a duck and paddles like a duck, I say it's a duck.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
If it doesn't look like a wire, and doesn't do a wire's job, and does do a job that wire cannot ever do (i.e., be the mechanism for turning something on and off), then I would not call it "wiring."
If it doesn't look like a wire, and doesn't do a wire's job, and does do a job that wire cannot ever do (i.e., be the mechanism for turning something on and off), then I would not call it "wiring."
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
The term in the first sentence wiring is so all encompassing as to include the entire conductive path for the UE current from the Service Point to the Outlets, except for what is listed in the second sentence of the definition.
And it includes the structures that house and support the wiring.
Now isn't that a confusing sentence. . .did I mean occupancy, dwelling, or something else. . .
Charlie B., there is absolutely no way that you can demonstrate in language of the NEC that the "conductive materials" inside a switch are excluded from the description of "That internal and external wiring".
You can say it, sure. But there is no language that expresses the distinction between conductive material and wiring.
The term in the first sentence wiring is so all encompassing as to include the entire conductive path for the UE current from the Service Point to the Outlets, except for what is listed in the second sentence of the definition.
And it includes the structures that house and support the wiring.
Now isn't that a confusing sentence. . .did I mean occupancy, dwelling, or something else. . .
Charlie B., there is absolutely no way that you can demonstrate in language of the NEC that the "conductive materials" inside a switch are excluded from the description of "That internal and external wiring".
You can say it, sure. But there is no language that expresses the distinction between conductive material and wiring.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
And there is absolutely no way that you can demonstrate in language of the NEC that the "conductive materials" inside a switch are included.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
A switch has two points on it that are connected together by the "conductive materials" inside the switch. This is indistinguishable for the "behaviour" of wiring.
The same can be said for all manner of wiring assemblies like cable, cord, receptacles, switchgear, the metal inside insulation that is known as "wire", busway.
So. I know you are not taking a leap of illogic with this one.
What does "wiring" always look like that you can draw this exclusion?
Wiring goes from one point to another point.
A switch has two points on it that are connected together by the "conductive materials" inside the switch. This is indistinguishable for the "behaviour" of wiring.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
All wiring is "conductive material." Not all conductive materials are wiring. All cats are animals. Not all animals are cats (some are ducks).
You and I are conductive materials. Does that make us "wiring"?
All wiring is "conductive material." Not all conductive materials are wiring. All cats are animals. Not all animals are cats (some are ducks).
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
That proves my stance. If the NEC doesn't prohibit it, it is.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
On the other hand, a wire can carry current hundreds of feet and more. There is no switch I have heard of that is big enough to do that.
The wire conducts current from one location to another, however far or near the two locations are to each other. Everything a switch does happens in one location (the point or the plane at which its contacts mate or separate), never two.
It is easily distinguishable. Upon movement of the switch handle, the conductive materials will either mate, and complete a connection with each other, or separate, and open the connection with each other. A wire never is used for such a purpose.
On the other hand, a wire can carry current hundreds of feet and more. There is no switch I have heard of that is big enough to do that.
The wire conducts current from one location to another, however far or near the two locations are to each other. Everything a switch does happens in one location (the point or the plane at which its contacts mate or separate), never two.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Come on, you can do better than that. This isn't about what is "prohibited," and what is not. It is about what is an "outlet," by the NEC's definition, and what is not.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
And I would say the same for them. Each item on that list is part of the premises wiring system, and I don't have to tear them apart to see if anything inside them would change that fact. Besides, if I did tear some of them apart to look inside, I might void their UL listing.
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