jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Does this mean that we are not going to a 1000?
Does this mean that we are not going to a 1000?
Big oops ... need suggestions
- Thread starter jeff43222
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al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
We'll see.
We'll see.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
On the other hand, if it doesn't look like an outlet, quack like an outlet, float like an outlet, or paddle like an outlet, I say it isn't an outlet.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Charlie, promise me you'll let me watch yo attach that 1/0 to the breaker!
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Originally posted by LarryFine:
Charlie, promise me you'll let me watch you attach that 1/0 to the breaker!
marc deschenes
Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
I'd say it the switch looks, walks, talks, floats, like a fancy wire nut, as in a device used to make a connection.
I'd say it the switch looks, walks, talks, floats, like a fancy wire nut, as in a device used to make a connection.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
To me, it's not relevant whether the switch is part of the wiring system; that's just semantics (like a lot of this thread is about). What matters is what occurs at this location. By the way, Al, while you say the code does not specify a physical location, I say let's start at the other end: the hypothetical switch in question exists in space, so we have a place.
Anyway, I still say that no current is supplied to (or "taken by", if you like) anything at switch locations. Please, we know you consider the load current "taken" at the switch. What we disagree on is whether what occurs at switch locations is "current taking". To say that current is leaving and then re-entering the wiring system is silly, but if you like it, go for it
We all understand what we all mean with the terms we're all using. We all know what each device in a wiring system does. What we're bantering about is what the code wording means. As with most subjects, the fact that we're even having a thread about this, and especially how long it is, and that it is still growing, indicates that there is no real concensus, but there is a majority.
Each "side" of the discussion (Al vs. et al) says that they're using the literal NEC wording, the opposition is interpreting, suggesting what the intent is, and we're not supposed to do that. Since Al has said that boxes without devices are not outlets (see here), but it's not the presence of the device that makes a box with a switch, I don't get what he feels is the deciding factor.
Al?
To me, it's not relevant whether the switch is part of the wiring system; that's just semantics (like a lot of this thread is about). What matters is what occurs at this location. By the way, Al, while you say the code does not specify a physical location, I say let's start at the other end: the hypothetical switch in question exists in space, so we have a place.
Anyway, I still say that no current is supplied to (or "taken by", if you like) anything at switch locations. Please, we know you consider the load current "taken" at the switch. What we disagree on is whether what occurs at switch locations is "current taking". To say that current is leaving and then re-entering the wiring system is silly, but if you like it, go for it
We all understand what we all mean with the terms we're all using. We all know what each device in a wiring system does. What we're bantering about is what the code wording means. As with most subjects, the fact that we're even having a thread about this, and especially how long it is, and that it is still growing, indicates that there is no real concensus, but there is a majority.
Each "side" of the discussion (Al vs. et al) says that they're using the literal NEC wording, the opposition is interpreting, suggesting what the intent is, and we're not supposed to do that. Since Al has said that boxes without devices are not outlets (see here), but it's not the presence of the device that makes a box with a switch, I don't get what he feels is the deciding factor.
Al?
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Charlie, you don't have to change it if you don't want to, but I think the question should include 210.12(B) as below.
Consider a simple on/off toggle switch that is located in a bedroom. That switch operates a light outside the bedroom. The circuit comprises no other loads and no other switches.
Question: Do you believe that article 210.12(B) of the NEC requires this circuit to have AFCI protection?
YES
or
NO
Roger
Charlie, you don't have to change it if you don't want to, but I think the question should include 210.12(B) as below.
Consider a simple on/off toggle switch that is located in a bedroom. That switch operates a light outside the bedroom. The circuit comprises no other loads and no other switches.
Question: Do you believe that article 210.12(B) of the NEC requires this circuit to have AFCI protection?
YES
or
NO
Roger
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Just curious: why the "The circuit comprises no other loads and no other switches." requirement? What would be different if there were several switches in the bedroom controlling several loads outside the bedroom? How about: "The circuit supplies no loads within the bedroom."
Edit: "The circuit supplies no outlets within the bedroom."
Yeah, that's it!
[ October 27, 2005, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: LarryFine ]
Just curious: why the "The circuit comprises no other loads and no other switches." requirement? What would be different if there were several switches in the bedroom controlling several loads outside the bedroom? How about: "The circuit supplies no loads within the bedroom."
Edit: "The circuit supplies no outlets within the bedroom."
Yeah, that's it!
[ October 27, 2005, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: LarryFine ]
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Wow! I didn't expect my post to paralyze the thread!
Wow! I didn't expect my post to paralyze the thread!
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
[QB] Allen,
I like the fact that you are introducing the thought of DC, here. The Article 100 Definition of Outlet covers DC also.
As for the light in the switch. . .why you're just a troublemaker,. . .aren't you?
Who me nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Just a relocated ny`r that has been in the south since the late 70`s and I like to stirr the nest to see what wasps still are alive
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
The definition of outlet is such that the current inside the switch, used as a controller, then, is coming from a point that satisfies the definition.
The discussion there deals with the distinction of where the point of the outlet is.
The edge of the premises wiring that is against, and in electrical contact with, the edge of the utilization equipment wiring is the Outlet, is the point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Actually, this is the heart of the matter. Accepting that Premises Wiring (System) defines the wiring internal to a switch as not being part of the premises wiring system means that the current travelling inside the conductors inside the switch has come out of the premises wiring.
The definition of outlet is such that the current inside the switch, used as a controller, then, is coming from a point that satisfies the definition.
Remember when Iwire and I were discussing factory vs. installer assembled appliance whips that are hard wired in a j-box? It's back on page 21, thereabouts, it think.
The discussion there deals with the distinction of where the point of the outlet is.
The edge of the premises wiring that is against, and in electrical contact with, the edge of the utilization equipment wiring is the Outlet, is the point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Originally posted by allenwayne:
I like to stirr the nest to see what wasps still are alive
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
349 to go guys don`t stop now.What gets me as ironic in another thread the nec has been twisted to suit the posts here the posts are twisted to suit the nec.Go figure
349 to go guys don`t stop now.What gets me as ironic in another thread the nec has been twisted to suit the posts here the posts are twisted to suit the nec.Go figure
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
I accept this definition without hesitation, but I fail to see how it pertains to a switch in a box, or a box containing a switch, etc., even a little.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Yeah, but which one is more fun?
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
both larry both.I go from here to other sites but still back space my way here.One sec have to return to ebay I have a pair of new blue handle klein 9 in.linesmans bid for $4.50 and $6.00 shipping and there were 12 min left when I jumped in here
both larry both.I go from here to other sites but still back space my way here.One sec have to return to ebay I have a pair of new blue handle klein 9 in.linesmans bid for $4.50 and $6.00 shipping and there were 12 min left when I jumped in here
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Good luck and happy bidding!Originally posted by allenwayne:
both larry both.I go from here to other sites but still back space my way here.One sec have to return to ebay I have a pair of new blue handle klein 9 in.linesmans bid for $4.50 and $6.00 shipping and there were 12 min left when I jumped in here
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
Got them 10.50 for a $28.00 pair of journeyman side cutters.Big O eat your heart out.Besides I need them my dumb rear didn`t do what i tell our guys to do TREAT AS IF LIVE NO MATTER WHAT
Can you say Kaboom...................
Got them 10.50 for a $28.00 pair of journeyman side cutters.Big O eat your heart out.Besides I need them my dumb rear didn`t do what i tell our guys to do TREAT AS IF LIVE NO MATTER WHAT
Can you say Kaboom...................
marc deschenes
Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions
The current is not taken at a general use snap switch it flows there when in the closed position .Why? Because there is an outlet at the luminaire .
Al"s "switch outlet "relies on the actual outlet,... that should tell us something.
A general use snap switch is a device used in conjunction with wiring systems and does not require an outlet to do so , just connections to the systems.
Simplicity ?? ,I can't make heads or tails of this, If this is where the N.E.C. is going God help us all.
The current is not taken at a general use snap switch it flows there when in the closed position .Why? Because there is an outlet at the luminaire .
Al"s "switch outlet "relies on the actual outlet,... that should tell us something.
A general use snap switch is a device used in conjunction with wiring systems and does not require an outlet to do so , just connections to the systems.
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