Big oops ... need suggestions

al hildenbrand · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Also look in the U.L. white book you will see that a switch is not a device listed to supply , but to controll the flow of current .

Marc, now you are getting to where this conversation between Charlie and I is at. Yes, a switch can control the flow of current. . .current to supply UE.

As for the White Book, we brought this up back on page eleven. Re-quoting myself:

SNAP SWITCHES (WJQR)

General Use Snap Switches are so constructed that they can be installed in flush device boxes or on outlet box covers or otherwise used in connection with wiring systems recognized by the National Electrical Code.

al hildenbrand · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Good morning Charlie B.:

I'm going to be in and out a bit today so, bear with me.

Originally posted by Charlie B.:
Break down the sentence yourself. The two words "together with" are the conjunction between "that wiring" and the entire set of three objects. 

Wiring together with hardware.

My apologies. I used the wrong term. I agree that you are right that "together" is used as a conjunction.

The key thing that I read is the lack of a separator between "wiring" and "together". "Together" ties the list "hardware, fittings and wiring devices" to the previous phrase, to "wiring", as you say.

Note that there is a separator after "interior and exterior wiring," and there is a separator after "hardware, fittings and wiring devices,", thus bracketing the whole phrase:

including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices

To show it another way, noting the square brackets, [ ]:

{That interior and exterior wiring,
[including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring
(together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices)]},
(both permanently and temporarily installed),
etc.

Thinking of this in terms of "sets" or Venn diagrams:

Premises Wiring (System) is the complete set.

The set is broken into two parts: Interior and Exterior. Interior and Exterior added together equal the complete set.

The complete set is broken down into "stuff A" and "stuff B" again with the phrase: "including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices".

"Stuff A" added together with "stuff B" equals, again, the complete set.

But "stuff A" is neither equal to "interior wiring" nor "exterior wiring". The same is true for "stuff B". Individual constituents of "stuff A" may be in either "interior wiring" or "exterior wiring". The same is true for "stuff B".

"Such wiring" of the second sentence refers to "That interior and exterior wiring".

Edit typo - Al

[ October 31, 2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]

jwelectric · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I am leaving now going to the NC Ellis Cannady IAEI meeting in Greensboro. All of the boring stuff will be over with when I get there and they will be settled down to code.

I will stay for the banquet and it will be late when I get home.

I know that the two of you are into some kind of English debate here but if you find the time please address the code quotes that I have posted. I promise to stay up tonight and read all the new post.

don_resqcapt19 · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Just because a switch is a device, does not make it also an outlet.
Don

peter d · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

This whole debate hinges on the effectiveness of the AFCI itself.

Furthermore, prove to me that faulty premises wiring is a major cause of residential fires, and I will consider this a worthwhile issue.

charlie b · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:The key thing that I read is the lack of a separator between "wiring" and "together". "Together" ties the list "hardware, fittings and wiring devices" to the previous phrase, to "wiring", as you say.

Just to be clear, I perceive you are talking about the absence of a comma between the words "and signal circuit wiring" and the words "together with." I also perceive that you interpret the absence of a comma as a deliberate intent to connect the four items (power wiring, lighting wiring, control wiring, and signal circuit wiring) to the three things (hardware, fittings, and wiring devices).

I disagree with that interpretation. There is no comma at that location because the author violated the rules of grammar. The words "together with" constitute a "conjunctive adverb" that begin the adverbial phrase "together with all their associated hardware. . . ." In accordance with Kate Turabian's "A Manual for Writers," a well-respected resource (I know that because my wife, the English Major and Professional Librarian, made me buy a copy), that situation requires a comma just before the conjunction.

But let's leave bad grammar out of the discussion. It says what it says. At the bottom of this page, I will show that the presence or absence of that comma does not change my argument.

So let's turn instead to your Venn Diagram. You never explained what your "stuff A" and "stuff B" were. So I don't quite follow your point. Let me try, and I'll try to be explicitly clear about what goes into what area within the Venn Diagram.

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: Premises Wiring (System) is the complete set. The set is broken into two parts: Interior and Exterior. Interior and Exterior added together equal the complete set.

No. There are three parts, and the three parts added together equal the complete set. Draw a Venn Diagram with three circles that have no common area (i.e., are mutually exclusive).

Interior wiring is one part. Label one circle in the Venn Diagram to represent interior wiring.
Exterior wiring is a second part. Label a second circle in the Venn Diagram to represent exterior wiring.
I'll give you the label for the third circle in a moment.

Divide the circle called "Interior Wiring" into four pieces. Label those four pieces "power" and "lighting" and "control" and "signal." Those four smaller pieces add up to give you the entire set of "Interior Wiring." There is nothing within "Interior Wiring" that does not fall into one, and only one, of those four pieces.

Divide the circle called "Exterior Wiring" into four pieces. Label those four pieces "power" and "lighting" and "control" and "signal." Those four smaller pieces add up to give you the entire set of "Exterior Wiring." There is nothing within "Exterior Wiring" that does not fall into one, and only one, of those four pieces.

Now let us label the third circle. Call it "Associated Stuff." Divide this third circle into three pieces.

Label one piece, "Hardware Associated with the Internal and Exterior Wiring."
Label the second piece, "Fittings Associated with the Internal and Exterior Wiring."
Label the third piece, "Wiring Devices Associated with the Internal and Exterior Wiring."

There is nothing within "Associated Stuff" that does not fall into one, and only one, of these three pieces.

In summary, the Premises Wiring System is comprised of three things:

Interior wiring, comprising power, lighting, control, and signal wiring, all of which is "wires,"
Exterior wiring, comprising power, lighting, control, and signal wiring, all of which is "wires," and
Hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, none of which is "wires."

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: "Such wiring" of the second sentence refers to "That interior and exterior wiring".

I agree. And in doing so, it is not referring back to the associated hardware, fittings, or wiring devices. It is referring back to wires, just to wires.

One more final point, as I promised above.

Why does the presence of absence of a comma not matter? The three things (hardware, fittings, and wiring devices) can be interpreted as being "associated with" the original words "interior and exterior wiring," as I believe. Those three things can be associated with the four things (power wiring, lighting wiring, control wiring, and signal circuit wiring), as you have said. But "Interior and Exterior Wiring," as a set of two things, is exactly identical to the set of "power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring," as can be seen from the Venn Diagram I describe above. So that grammar error does not change the meaning of the sentence.

charlie b · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by peter d:
Is there any punishment for a felony threadjacking like this one?

Yes. You will be required to read the entire thread. Or would that be cruel and unusual?

charlie b · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric: I know that the two of you are into some kind of English debate here but if you find the time please address the code quotes that I have posted. I promise to stay up tonight and read all the new post.

I'll give it a try. I altered the format of your post, to highlight your separate questions, and to separate each clearly from the others. I also placed your separate comments in bold text. I changed none of your words, just the format. I trust you'll not mind.

Originally posted by jwelectric:

I would appreciate someone addressing my outlook if they would be so kind. I have asked a question after some of these quotes.

2005 code quotes;

410.11 an outlet box that is an integral part of a luminaire (where?) 

410.12 each outlet box shall be provided with a cover (what kind of cover to cover what) 

334.30 every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting. (switch boxes are exempted?) 

250.148 (D) nonmetallic outlet box shall be arranged such that a connection can be made to any fitting or device in that box requiring grounding. (so any fitting or device constitutes an outlet box?) 

356.30(1) every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting. (switch boxes are exempted?) 

320.30 every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting (switch boxes are exempted?) 

517.13(B) Exception No. 1: Metal faceplates shall be permitted to be grounded by means of a metal mounting screw(s) securing the faceplate to a grounded outlet box or grounded wiring device. (switch faceplates don?t require grounding) 

Then I saved the best to the very last. I think that this should put this matter to rest once and for all.


680.23(F)(2)(b) or an outlet box used to enclose a snap switch.

Please would someone take the time to address all these outlets outlined by the NEC.

First a note about the English language. You cannot take a two (or more) word phrase and find its meaning by looking up each of the words separately, then adding the separate definitions together. Any argument you put forth with that as its basis will have no merit whatsoever. You want proof? Try discovering what the following phrases mean by looking up the individual words separately:

Vice president. (Is this a person elected to conduct criminal (i.e., "vice") activities?)
Chair person. (Is this a carpenter?)
Master electrician (Are the rest of you slaves?)
Human Resources (Is their office right next to the Vet's Clinic?)
Waste Management (I suppose it is just as bad to waste the workers too?)

You can call something an "outlet box" when it is still on the shelf at the hardware store or supply house. You don't get to call it, or anything inside it, or anything in its vicinity, an "outlet," until you purchase it, bring it somewhere, and do something with tools. So everything you wish to offer about "outlet boxes" will have no bearing whatsoever on the discussion of what is, and what is not, and "outlet."

But now to your individual comments, in order of their appearance in bold above:

I've seen outlet boxes in ceilings with luminaires hung from them. But I don't recall having seen a luminaire hung from something other than an outlet box, with just wires coming from the ceiling space coming into the luminaire, so that the "outlet" exists within the luminaire itself. And I've never bought a light fixture that came with its own outlet box. But I suppose it could happen. That section is saying not to run any other circuit through the luminaire, unless the luminaire was listed for such use.
A plastic cover to cover the outlet box. You don't want to leave the outlet box open for public viewing, especially if there are wires going through it.
Is there an actual term called "switch box," other than in non-code conversational English? Do we not install switches in "outlet boxes," whether or not the result is the creation of an "outlet"?
It does not say that any fitting or device constitutes an "outlet box." Rather, it talks about fittings or devices that might be installed inside an "outlet box."
See my comment two line items up.
Same comment again.
You are correct: switch faceplates do not require grounding. That article is talking about two things. One is receptacles. The other is non-current carrying conductive surfaces of equipment that is (1) likely to become energized, and (2) subject to personal contact. A switch faceplate does not fit into either of those descriptions. This is not part of the article's scope, but a switch also does not fit into either of those descriptions.
You can put a switch inside an "outlet box," while you are still in the store, and before you have paid for either one of them, and well before there are any wires nearby.

Now if you are done trying to define "outlet" in terms of the NEC's use of the phrase "outlet box," we can get back to the discussion of what is, and what is not, an "outlet."

charlie b · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric: My thinking on this is that the NEC has named each one of these places ?outlet.? It has named each location as being a box that contains an outlet.

No, Mike. It is calling them "outlet boxes." It has not named a single one of them an "outlet."

Originally posted by jwelectric:If the codes call the box an outlet box who am I to call it different?

The box is an "outlet box." But there may or may not be an "outlet" at that location.

LarryFine · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Why are we hung up on the fact that the only place an outlet can occur is the exact point where it leaves the premise wiring?

Because that's the wording use in Art. 100's definition of "outlet."

Using section 210.21 which states;

210.21 Outlet Devices.
Outlet devices shall have an ampere rating that is not less than the load to be served and shall comply with 210.21(A) and (B).

Click to expand...

And the definition of device

Device. A unit of an electrical system that is intended to carry or control but not utilize electric energy.

Click to expand...

I am finding it hard to leave a switch out of the outlet category.

This indicates you're of the opinion that all devices are outlet devices, which is not true.

As I have pointed out in the pervious posts where I quoted the code and its use of the words ?outlet boxes? it is clear that switches was included in this terminology.

Article 314 Outlet, Device, Pull, and Junction Boxes; Conduit Bodies; Fittings; and Handhole Enclosures, here it makes it very clear that there is a difference between the use of a boxes or conduit bodys.

Click to expand...

As others have stated, the generic term "outlet boxes" is not the same as the NEC definition of "outlet". One describes a piece of hardware, and the other (as Al has pointed out) describes a point on the system where a certain even occurs.

charlie b · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Now we're up to 750, and not even an "agree to disagree" in sight.

peter d · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

It's think it's time to close it and not discuss this topic ever again!! The next step would be to get a formal interpretation from the NFPA, and that would be the "official" answer that people are looking for.

It's obvious that an "agree to disagree" is necessary, and let people make their own decsions about this topic in the meantime, because it's obvious that people are burrowed in to deep to change their positions at this point.

[ October 31, 2005, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]

LarryFine · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by peter d:
Time to close it and not discuss this topic ever again!!

Surely you jest!

(I know: No, you aren't jesting, and I shouldn't call you Shirley)

al hildenbrand · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie B.,

You are straining too hard at making a distinction where there is none. Calling the absence "bad grammar" is your opinion. And we know that "opinion" is not enforceable Code.

There is no separator, "no comma", between "wiring together" in the middle of the phrase

including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices

And it is important to note that the "comma" has been missing from this location in every single Code cycle since "Premises Wiring (System)" was first introduced in 1978. Unless you can demonstrate that the intent of the CMP in 1975 - 1977 was, in fact, for us to assume the sentence structure that you want to read, then you have to allow my interpretation to exist.

I apologize for failing to specify "stuff A" and "stuff B".

"Stuff A" = power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring
"Stuff B" = associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices

The Venn diagram I understand from the language of Premises Wiring (System) is very simple.

The single red rectangle bounds everything that is Premises Wiring (System).

The single red rectangle is divided horizontally into two smaller red bordered rectangles: "Interior Wiring" and "Exterior Wiring".

The color added divides the contents of the same large rectangle (the Premises Wiring (System) into two parts. The orange is as labeled in the separate orange swatch, and the blue is as labeled in its separate color swatch.

That's it. When the second sentence of "Premises Wiring (System)" is applied, one puts a small circle, or whatever shape, into the appropriate relationship to the four overlapping areas.

charlie b · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: Unless you can demonstrate that the intent of the CMP in 1975 - 1977 was, in fact, for us to assume the sentence structure that you want to read, then you have to allow my interpretation to exist.

I told you the grammar doesn't matter. I showed why. The sentence has to be interpreted my way, regardless of whether there is a missing comma, and I said so. Please don't put any emphasis on the grammar. I was merely pointing out that the sentence is not structured the way you are saying it is.

I would accept your version of the Venn Diagram, but it needs one essential change. You need to draw a vertical line between the orange areas and the blue areas.

You have four areas. They do not overlap each other, and your image shows that fact correctly, but not as clearly as it could. Add a vertical line separating the blue and orange, and it will be more clear. That is the important point, and I have been saying that all along.

The blue area on the top right does not have any points in common with the orange area at the top left.

Some amount of "hardware, fittings, and wiring devices" are "associated with" the "Interior Wiring," but the blue and orange areas on the top half do not overlap. No "hardware" is an interior wire; no "fitting" is an interior wire; no "wiring device" is an interior wire.

The blue area on the bottom right does not have any points in common with the orange area at the bottom left.

Some amount of " hardware, fittings, and wiring devices" are "associated with" the "Exterior Wiring," but the blue and orange areas on the bottom half do not overlap. No "hardware" is an exterior wire; no "fitting" is an exterior wire; no "wiring device" is an exterior wire.

Originally posted by al hildenbrand: When the second sentence of "Premises Wiring (System)" is applied, one puts a small circle, or whatever shape, into the appropriate relationship to the four overlapping areas.

The "appropriate relationship" can be shown by drawing a circle that contains both the leading "I" in "Interior" and the leading "E" in "Exterior," but that does not contain any of the blue area.

The "such wiring" is referring back to "wiring." It is referring back to the orange areas.

al hildenbrand · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

This is not about a single missing comma.

Originally posted by Charlie B.:
I told you the grammar doesn't matter. I showed why.

And here is what you showed:

Originally posted by Charlie B.:
Why does the presence of absence of a comma not matter? The three things (hardware, fittings, and wiring devices) can be interpreted as being "associated with" the original words "interior and exterior wiring," as I believe. Those three things can be associated with the four things (power wiring, lighting wiring, control wiring, and signal circuit wiring), as you have said. But "Interior and Exterior Wiring," as a set of two things, is exactly identical to the set of "power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring," as can be seen from the Venn Diagram I describe above. So that grammar error does not change the meaning of the sentence.

The first sentence in the definition of Premises Wiring (System) is clear to use two commas to separate out this one part of the sentence:

That interior and exterior wiring, including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, both permanently and temporarily installed

Using bold italics doesn't get the bracketing commas to jump off the screen, but I think you'll tell if you look close.

The same quote above shown in several lines is:

That interior and exterior wiring,
[including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring
(together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices)],
both permanently and temporarily installed,
etc.

The two square brackets correspond to the location of the commas I am talking about.

These two commas are there and hold the bracketed phrase together.

al hildenbrand · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I've got Halloween obligations now, to take part in. I'll check in later tonight.

charlie b · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I withdraw my conditional acceptance of your Venn Diagram, since you did not accept the condition. Unless you separate the blue and orange, you will have the Venn Diagram Wrong.

The omission of the comma doesn't change the meaning of the sentence. The only way it can be diagrammed, and obtain a result that is not obvious nonsense, is to diagram it as thought the comma were there. What do I mean by "nonsense"? I want you to hold up a plastic cover plate and a conduit bushing and explain how they look like wiring, walk like wiring, quack like wiring, and swim like wiring. Maybe then we can believe the code intends to include hardware, fittings, and wiring devices as being subsets of "wiring." Until then, I will continue to assert that they are subsets of "Premises Wiring System," and are mutually exclusive of all types of "wiring."

Here is how the sentence is structured:

The phrase "including power . . . signal circuit wiring" modifies the object "(interior and exterior) wiring."
The phrase "together with . . . wiring devices" modifies the same object.
The phrase "both permanently and temporarily installed . . . " modifies the same object.

Your brackets are in the wrong place, and the fact that grammar requires a comma that is not there does not change the fact that your brackets are in the wrong place.

That interior and exterior wiring,


[including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring]

[together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices],

[both permanently and temporarily installed,]

etc.

The hardware, fittings, and wiring devices are associated with wiring, they are not themselves wiring.

al hildenbrand · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by Charlie B.:
I would accept your version of the Venn Diagram, but it needs one essential change. You need to draw a vertical line between the orange areas and the blue areas.

You have four areas. They do not overlap each other, and your image shows that fact correctly, but not as clearly as it could. Add a vertical line separating the blue and orange, and it will be more clear. That is the important point, and I have been saying that all along.

You would have the blue area be on the right side of a red vertical line and have "interior and exterior wiring" end on the left side of that vertical red line. I do understand the perspective you describe. However, while you claim the distinction you are making is the only way that makes sense:

Originally posted by Charlie B.:
The only way it can be diagrammed, and obtain a result that is not obvious nonsense, is to diagram it as thought the comma were there.

Your claim rings hollow. Here's why.

When I am called to work at a new building as an electrical contractor, I am hired to install the "wiring". If all I am installing is the interior wiring, say this is a single store space inside the Mall of America. (For those of you not familiar, this is a four story tall mall in the shape of a donut surrounding a roofed amusement park. It's huge. Almost all of the stores have no outside walls.) I am hired to wire the store.

The general contractor will look at me like I am from Mars if I show up with just wire, and ask, where are the subcontractors that do all the associated hardware and fittings.

That general contractor, hiring me to do the "interior wiring" for this new store in the Mall, is expecting the wiring he is paying for to be complete.

He's not going to ask me to do "the Premises Wiring (System)." He doesn't have to. He knows that I understand that the interior wiring I do at this store will be complete, that is, the "interior wiring" will have all it's stuff, "stuff A" and "stuff B".

When I complete an "interior wiring" job, I will not get paid unless that interior wiring includes the complete installation of the all the required wiring devices. Wiring devices are not a separate piece. My client will not arrange a separate contract with me for this other stuff that, you claim, is not part of the interior wiring. He doesn't have to. My client knows that wiring devices are part of the interior wiring, as are all the fittings and associated hardware.

jwelectric · Oct 31, 2005

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I have read and disagree. It is late and I need to get early in the morning to get back to the IAEI meeting but don't fret I haven't given up.

Big oops ... need suggestions

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