Bonding

[realolman]

After seeing an example of the type of fence on the guardian site, it seems to me to be unreasonable to require these posts to be bonded .

Art.680 26 (B) (5) is titled Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment, and talks about cables, raceway, piping, and "fixed" metal parts. I think that the type fence in question is none of these.

Weighing the tragedy the fence is designed to prevent, against the tragedy the fence would likely cause, leads me to think it would be better if the fence was not bonded, rather than being absent altogether because of an NEC rule that in this particular instance seems to be of questionable value.

I think it would actually make more sense to install bonded conductive bases in the deck rather than the plastic.

 

[eric stromberg]

This is the last time I will respond to you. Please pay attention.

My question is: Is there an electrical gradient issue with my fencing system as the posts are isolated within a non-conductive sleeve.

Blaine,
With all due respect, this is a Code Forum. Do you want to know what the Code states, or are you looking for design assistance to make your 2011 proposal?

 

[Cavie]

Say what ????

Please explain.

They are portable, not fixed in place. 95% of them get removed after inspection, put in the garage, never to be used again. We do not require them to be bonded. Surrounding counties do not either.

 

[M. D.]

Blaine,
With all due respect, this is a Code Forum. Do you want to know what the Code states, or are you looking for design assistance to make your 2011 proposal?

If we all knew what the "code states " this forum would be mighty boring, article 680.26(B)(5) says "all fixed metal" the question is ,..is this post fixed metal or is like like other removable metal objects that one finds around pools. If the fence is in the shed I don't see how my electrical installation could be failed , the inserts are non conductive, the fence is in the shed more than 5' away. He raises an interesting question in my opinion

 

[M. D.]

Blaine when your product was developed was this concern ever rasied? were any NEC code experts consulted??

 

[masterelect1]

Option

Option

Have you considered PVC schedule 80 posts in lieu of metal ?

 

[stickboy1375]

I'm having a hard time seeing where the code is requiring a metal pool fence to be bonded, You can't use section 680.26 (5) because that is only for metal wiring methods and Equipment not fencing... unless of course your using the fencing as a wireway...

 

[don_resqcapt19]

You can't use section 680.26 (5) because that is only for metal wiring methods and Equipment not fencing

I don't agree. It is for all "fixed metal parts", not just parts of the electrical system.
Don

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Blaine,
You never stated that your fence is a removable item. If your metal posts can be removed without the use of tools, they are not covered by the section that I cited.
Don

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Blaine,
You never stated that your fence is a removable item. If your metal posts can be removed without the use of tools, they are not covered by the section that I cited.
Don

I think he did in his first sentence

My business installs removable fencing in the decks surrounding swimming pools.

The 2008 code reads almost as you presented in your post.

Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment.
Metal sheated cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded.

It then list the exceptions stated in 2005 code-- they clarified that section with exceptions.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Dennis,
I should have said he never stated that the fence posts are removable. I was assuming that the fence fabric was removable from the poles.
Also after additional review of their web site, they offer parts that would require the use of tools to remove the posts. If those parts are used, I will stand by my original statement that the metallic poles are fixed metal parts and are required to be bonded by the code rules.
Don

 

[M. D.]

Don, you must have thought I was out in left field,.. LOL,.. or maybe you didn't read my posts either

 

[Blaine Hall]

Bonding

Six counties in my area of dealership do not require the bonding. It is only Fresno County that currently requires it. I plan on contacting the Chief Electrical inspector on Monday to seek clarification. I don't see the applicability of the requirement as the system is electrically isolated from the potential gradient in the deck. Feedback?

 

[brian john]

Isolated with PVC sleeves?, I do loads of testing isolated systems, they seldom to never are (ISOLATED). Lets see after installation, chlorinated water, dirt, trash particulate, cracks in the PVC, ect.

As was pointed out earlier an isolated fence can be dangerous, extension cord shorts to an isolated fence, fence is energized pool user touches fence, bare feet, FRIED CALIFORNIAN....This potential accident is not a stretch.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Six counties in my area of dealership do not require the bonding. It is only Fresno County that currently requires it. I plan on contacting the Chief Electrical inspector on Monday to seek clarification. I don't see the applicability of the requirement as the system is electrically isolated from the potential gradient in the deck. Feedback?

I believe you are correct but as the Nec reads their are no exceptions. There also could be potential for the fence to become energized as Iwire has stated.

I would contact the state inspector and ask for his/her interpretation. There is no other way out whether we agree with you or not. Good luck

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Blaine,

I don't see the applicability of the requirement as the system is electrically isolated from the potential gradient in the deck.

The requirement does not hinge on the metal object being isolated or not from the deck. The section I cited would apply to a metal door or window frame that is installed within 5' of the pool. These items would be isolated as much, if not more, than you post from the pool deck. The rules intent is to make sure every metal object is bonded to together to keep them all at the same potential....starting with the 2008 code we will even have to bond to the water in the pool!!!
Now if your posts are not fixed (as defined by the inspector or AHJ) there is no code requirement to bond. I think this is the area you need to persue with the chief inspector.
Don

 

[stickboy1375]

I don't agree. It is for all "fixed metal parts", not just parts of the electrical system.
Don

Look at the heading, (5) Metal Wiring Methods & Equipment

Doesn't get any simpler than that...

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Stick,
The wording of the section goes beyond the heading section.

5) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts that are within the following distances of the pool, except those separated from the pool by a permanent barrier, shall be bonded.

If it was just electrical parts, the section would not use the words "metal piping".
Don

 

[stickboy1375]

Stick,
The wording of the section goes beyond the heading section.

If it was just electrical parts, the section would not use the words "metal piping".
Don

I'm just having a hard time with the Heading, Why call it that specific of a name and just throw everything under it?

I know it says metal piping, but going back to the heading the two should be related, and a metal fence certainty is not related to the heading, now if that metal piping was part of some type of electrical equipment, then I would agree that it would need to be bonded.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I'm just having a hard time with the Heading, Why call it that specific of a name and just throw everything under it?

I understand the confusion that the heading causes in this and other code sections. I took a look at the Manual of Style for the NEC and did not find any rules as to the heading and the content of the section. There are a number of sections like this. One of my favorites is Part VII (230.90) where the heading is "Overcurrent protection" but the rules only require "overload protection", as it is not possible to provide overcurrent protection on the load end of a conductor.
Don