- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
If the customer is a little fruity, a little overkill pays dividends. 
Bosch 40 amp cooktop
- Thread starter Greg1707
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
If the customer is a little fruity, a little overkill pays dividends.
Yes if you don't know about the equipment and you don't want to wait for your own reasons pulling more makes sense.
But again, in this case the EC has the specifications for the unit, if the customer changes their mind afterwards I make money for that change.
I have no idea why this has become so difficult. :?
I have installed 125 volt 20 amp outlets for pizza ovens based on the specifications given me, when the units arrived they needed two 50 amp 3 phase 208 circuits.
Should I have pulled two 6/3 MCs ahead of time even though the info should only one 12/2 needed?
I made a killing on that change, changes are where the money is in construction.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
The difference is, in single family one-off construction, there is a lot less money floating around for change orders, and people irrationally take it personally when they come along, and are loathe to sign a check based on their own mistake. It makes a $20 gimme worth more than a few hours on the phone explaining to three different people what happened.
- Location
- Massachusetts
To each their own, in my case the boss gets upset when I give things away that we could have made money on.
(Edit: And 220/221 thinks I single him out ........... that is just too funny ...... I like George and I hammer him.
)
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- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Yeah, but everybody knows I like it. :blink:
jmellc
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
- Occupation
- Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
If I don't see the appliance ahead of time, I stick with 8/3 and charge for it. Installing #10 when not sure, then having to come back makes no sense either.
jmellc
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
- Occupation
- Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Isn't running circuits without knowing the requirements stupid?
If it helps me get the job done I might install more than what is needed to cover my rear.
On the other hand in this case the OP has the info from the manufacturer any deviations from that are on the customer.
For a single run it is really no big deal, if it is a 30 unit apartment building it is a big deal.
Sometimes the customer has not yet bought the appliance but the kitchen work is being done now. He buys the appliance last thing or suddenly decides on different model. You can't always know everything ahead of time. If we could, we would all play the stock market, get rich & not have to bust our butts swinging hammers & turning wrenches.
jmellc
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
- Occupation
- Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
You are comparing apples & oranges. No one could anticipate going from a 120 ckt to 3 phase & you should not have to anticipate something that drastic.
But 40 amp ovens are getting more common. I've done remodels where the customer and GC have not selected the oven yet & the wire needs to be pulled; we have other places to go & things to do, sometimes have to pull wire while walls are open. Since 40 amp is becoming more common, it makes sense to go ahead & run it. Running a 30 & it being too small can make us look bad, regardless of who gave the wrong info. Run #8 and charge for #8. Price difference is not that great & no worry about it being too small. Keep a good name in the bargain too.
jmellc
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
- Occupation
- Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Come on, be real. How many water heaters have you ever seen that required a neutral? I have never seen one, except gas models that just needed a 120V receptacle for ignitors, etc.
Ovens & cooktops are constantly reinvented. It is only common sense to think a little ahead on them.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I have a 20 gallon 120 volt electric water heater in my shop. It has a neutral but only one ungrounded conductor.
You did ask
I think the reason you are even having this discussion in the first place, is there is a trend for more and more appliances to have a neutral.
I've been told that it's for the control circuits and the light. The heating elements don't need it. If that's the case, I think we ought to be allowed to pull a #14 in the pipe but I'm told we can't do that.
Thanks Mike
I've been told that it's for the control circuits and the light. The heating elements don't need it. If that's the case, I think we ought to be allowed to pull a #14 in the pipe but I'm told we can't do that.
Thanks Mike
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
You can pull a neutral sized to whatever minimum equipment grounding conductor is required if the load on the neutral is no more than that size conductor is rated for.
I'd guess the main reason for this is if you were to have a line to neutral fault, it should be large enough to open overcurrent device quickly as well as not suffer any damage from the fault current.
For 40 or 50 amp range circuit that means a 10 AWG copper neutral is allowed.
NM cable is just not sold with a 10 white otherwise it would be acceptable. It can probably be ordered that way, minimum order size is likely required if not a stock item.
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