Branch Circuit

[ActionDave]

The box has to be located between the two units and the taps can only be long enough to allow the appliances to be removed. If the cooktop is in the island away from the oven, the rule doesn't apply.

Rick

"but the location of the j-box is important" - agreed

"The box has to be located between the two units" - disagree - handbook makes such an assertion, but the NEC makes no such stipulation.

"If the cooktop is in the island away from the oven, the rule doesn't apply" - agreed.

What is the problem with running to an island?

 

[resistance]

I see it as the maximum run conductor is a 50 amp with a minimum 20 amp conductor. Article 210.23(C) and table 210.24 allow 40 and 50 amp circuits to be tapped with 12 awg.

Rick

My point is: the branch circuit conductor from the source ( the source being the 50a ocpd--as required to meet the nec rule for the cooking appliance tap) must be sized based on the circuit breaker. So the 40a breaker is in violation, as well as the conductor size. Sounds to me that a few people believe that using a 40a breaker is fine, when code clearly states a 50a breaker is required to satisfy the tap rule. So, I have no idea why someone would think a number 8 nm-b would be fine to install from the source to the junction ( junction=tap location)

 

[resistance]

The size of the two appliances would need to be known first. The oven and cooktop kw are added and treated as 1 appliance. If the kw is over 12 kw then the 40 amp circuit is to small. If under 12 kw, then the 40 amp circuit is good, but the location of the j-box is important. The box has to be located between the two units and the taps can only be long enough to allow the appliances to be removed. If the cooktop is in the island away from the oven, the rule doesn't apply.

Rick

I agree that tge branch circuit load can be calculated using t. 220.55 ( note 4), but i disagree that a 40a breaker can be used.

 

[iwire]

when code clearly states a 50a breaker is required to satisfy the tap rule.

I don't think it is clear at all.

 

[resistance]

The size of the two appliances would need to be known first. The oven and cooktop kw are added and treated as 1 appliance. If the kw is over 12 kw then the 40 amp circuit is to small. If under 12 kw, then the 40 amp circuit is good, but the location of the j-box is important. The box has to be located between the two units and the taps can only be long enough to allow the appliances to be removed. If the cooktop is in the island away from the oven, the rule doesn't apply.

Rick

I agree that the branch circuit load can be calculated using t. 220.55 ( note 4), But i disagree that a 40a breaker can be used.

 

[resistance]

I don't think it is clear at all.

For the most part I agree..lol!!

 

[resistance]

Back to my initial post. I don't see where T.220.55 note 4 and 210.19(A)3 ex 1 agree--accept to say tapping is fine, if it doesn't include a range.

 

[RUWired]

What is the problem with running to an island?

"The box has to be located between the two units" - disagree - handbook makes such an assertion, but the NEC makes no such stipulation.

Article 210.19(A)3 exception# 1 states "the taps shall be not longer than necessary for servicing the appliance". This would require the box to be located between the two units, or under the one, and or next to each other.
Rick

 

[RUWired]

I agree that the branch circuit load can be calculated using t. 220.55 ( note 4), But i disagree that a 40a breaker can be used.

Do you agree table 210.24 can be used for making taps on 40 amp circuits using 12 awg conductors?

 

[resistance]

Do you agree table 210.24 can be used for making taps on 40 amp circuits using 12 awg conductors?

I agree T.210.24 allows a #12 tap, but what does the table have to do with a 50a breaker requirement to satisfy the cooking appliance tap?? Read my last.

 

[resistance]

@ RU
I guess I should say read post 22

 

[dana1028]

Article 210.19(A)3 exception# 1 states "the taps shall be not longer than necessary for servicing the appliance". This would require the box to be located between the two units, or under the one, and or next to each other.
Rick

I'm just saying this does not require the tap point be located 'between' the 2 appliances, your other 2 examples would suffice.

 

[dana1028]

What is the problem with running to an island?

I think kwired in post #19 summed it up admirably - anything longer than his solution would be 'longer than necessary.'

 

[kwired]

Article 210.19(A)3 exception# 1 states "the taps shall be not longer than necessary for servicing the appliance". This would require the box to be located between the two units, or under the one, and or next to each other.
Rick

I don't think you are getting the picture of what I posted earlier. A 'tap' is a conductor that has overcurrent protection that is higher than its ampacity.

If you put a box under, behind or in adjacent space to an oven and connect a tap for the oven there and then run 50 amp conductor from that junction box to another junction box near the cooktop on other end of kitchen and tap the cooktop to that you are still compliant. Unless someone can point to where it says both appliance taps have to connect to the circuit conductors at the same point. I am pretty confident it does not say anything like this anywhere in the NEC.

 

[RUWired]

I don't think you are getting the picture of what I posted earlier. A 'tap' is a conductor that has overcurrent protection that is higher than its ampacity.

Maybe i'm not. I thought we were talking about taps. In your scenario, there are no taps(if connecting directly to the unit), unless the appliance has a whip. Then the whip would be a tap. But as long as the j-box was located as close to each unit it would be ok.

 

[kwired]

Maybe i'm not. I thought we were talking about taps. In your scenario, there are no taps(if connecting directly to the unit), unless the appliance has a whip. Then the whip would be a tap. But as long as the j-box was located as close to each unit it would be ok.

That is exactly what I am talking about. If the conductors in the whip are only 12 AWG and connected to more than 20 amp circuit it is a tap.

Where does it say that both a cooktop and an oven or other similar installation have to tap at the same junction box? If you run 50 amp conductor from one junction box to the other, the taps are still only as long as necessary to connect the appliances. Appliances could be 100 feet apart and you still are OK.

 

[RUWired]

That is exactly what I am talking about. If the conductors in the whip are only 12 AWG and connected to more than 20 amp circuit it is a tap.

Where does it say that both a cooktop and an oven or other similar installation have to tap at the same junction box? If you run 50 amp conductor from one junction box to the other, the taps are still only as long as necessary to connect the appliances. Appliances could be 100 feet apart and you still are OK.

Your right, they don't, but like you said,the box needs to be under,next to or as close as possible to the appliance that the tap is made from. Your extending the 50 amp circuit to each appliance location, and then making the tap. That i see as OK.:happyyes: