Brazen, Shameless and Unapologetic AFCI Expansion

[mbrooke]

Looks like Eaton is doing damage control:

Current Thinking: Keeping up with the code

www.eaton.com

https://imgur.com/puvOgik

 

[hbiss]

I don't care if they are 100% driven by manufacturers. They write the Code and they are responsible for it. Of course manufacturers will kiss up and do what ever it takes to get their products written into Code because it guarantees that everybody will HAVE to use them. That can be worth billions. But it's the NFPAs responsibility to do the research INDEPENDENT of the people who are pushing this stuff to guarantee to their customers (that's the states who adopt their codes and us) that what they require will perform as the manufacturers say, not a pack of lies they conjured up.

I agree this has reached the tipping point and has to stop. The first line of defense is the states who need to grow a back bone and amend these money wasters out of their Codes.

Have any state's Attorney Generals looked into this? This is out and out fraud and legal action needs to be taken AGAINST THE NFPA.

-Hal

 

[romex jockey]

Have any state's Attorney Generals looked into this? This is out and out fraud and legal action needs to be taken AGAINST THE NFPA.

No class action suit has ever reached the steps of a courthouse, however i am aware of a number of them that realized it was a 'deeper pockets' issue, and subsequently folded. What most don't realize is, this is more than just the NFPA, it's the CSPC and UL as well , any litigation takes on the whole system

Those three entities have also had key members serve as either direct or alternate CMP-2 members for over 2 decades now

One can read the initial collective history here>

http://combinationafci.com/resources/doc_ieee_combination_afci.pdf

The role played by the four principal participants will be described: U. S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (UL), National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA), and National Electrical Code Committee (NEC) Code Panel No. 2.

~RJ~

 

[mayanees]

I have the same concern about the impact that arc flash has had on the NEC. Sections 240.67 (fuses) and 240.87 (breakers) are two examples where the code attempts to safeguard against arcing faults, and arcing faults are extremely rare. I think it's all in response to the horrific injuries associated with the rare occurrence of an arc flash where the affected person wasn't wearing PPE or did something wrong that caused the event, but the fact is that electricity will never be completely idiot-proofed. The vast majority of electrical fatalities are shock related, so when will all exposed buses/terminals/conductors be completely insulated to aid in the prevention of electrocutions? .... not that I'm recommending that.

 

[brantmacga]

Here are my thoughts.

I think we as a group should focus first on stopping the expanded adoption at a local level.

We could collectively put together a well informed informational packet to discuss with local leaders; not opinion, but the facts of the case. And it would probably have more traction in your municipality as a group effort, and not just one contractor banging on the door. We have a local electrical contractors association (which I haven’t been active in the last couple of years due to time constraints), but that would be a good place for me to start.

It’s also important to know the laws of your state in regards to code enforcement. In Georgia (my location), municipalities are allowed to amend the code through the following process: The amendment must first be submitted to the state Dept of Community Affairs by your local AHJ. If DCA rejects it (which they would this), the next step is to take if before a vote by local elected officials (city/county commission). If the vote passes, the amendment stands, and you file it with the DCA as being adopted.

I personally think this is an amendment that stands a good chance of passing in my home county.

I’ve been thinking seriously for the past couple of years about getting myself a nomination for the local building authority board; maybe this is a good time to go ahead and start working on that.

My city isn’t that big, but one of the 10 largest metro areas in the state. If we were able to get an amendment against this expansion, I think other cities in GA would take notice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[StarCat]

Trust me (all the way to the bank). The manufacturers are criminals and the NEC is complicit.

What more do we need? Why aren't there class actions suits going on????

-Hal

I definitely trust what you have said.

 

[hbiss]

I think we as a group should focus first on stopping the expanded adoption at a local level.

I agree but not just stopping expansion, with the deletion of 210.12 in its entirety.

We could collectively put together a well informed informational packet to discuss with local leaders; not opinion, but the facts of the case.

I think the inclusion of that podcast along with a transcript would be particularly damning.

-Hal

 

[mopowr steve]

Help keep this thread front and center until we get change.

 

[hbiss]

Should be a sticky.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

And, really, what is the difference between AFCIs and those energy saving devices? With both, the manufacturers make unsubstantiated claims about their effectiveness.

-Hal

The AFCI manufacturers have deeper pockets to push requiring their product, as they have many other legitimate products out there that they built their wealth on.

 

[kwired]

Here are my thoughts.

I think we as a group should focus first on stopping the expanded adoption at a local level.

We could collectively put together a well informed informational packet to discuss with local leaders; not opinion, but the facts of the case. And it would probably have more traction in your municipality as a group effort, and not just one contractor banging on the door. We have a local electrical contractors association (which I haven’t been active in the last couple of years due to time constraints), but that would be a good place for me to start.

It’s also important to know the laws of your state in regards to code enforcement. In Georgia (my location), municipalities are allowed to amend the code through the following process: The amendment must first be submitted to the state Dept of Community Affairs by your local AHJ. If DCA rejects it (which they would this), the next step is to take if before a vote by local elected officials (city/county commission). If the vote passes, the amendment stands, and you file it with the DCA as being adopted.

I personally think this is an amendment that stands a good chance of passing in my home county.

I’ve been thinking seriously for the past couple of years about getting myself a nomination for the local building authority board; maybe this is a good time to go ahead and start working on that.

My city isn’t that big, but one of the 10 largest metro areas in the state. If we were able to get an amendment against this expansion, I think other cities in GA would take notice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

would have to be amended at state level here. Local jurisdictions would not be able to amend this out, they would be able to accept the AFCI rules though even if State amended them out.

State had amended 210.10 out of code in first few years, they gave in when adopting 2008 and adopted it as is and have ever since.

 

[hbiss]

It seems everybody knows that we are being taken for a ride but nobody want's to do anything about it. It's been suggested that we get our electrical contractors associations on board to petition your state. Also how about a petition signed by every electrical contractor and forwarded to the state?

We need to make some noise about this, not just complain about it to ourselves.

-Hal

 

[romex jockey]

We need to make some noise about this, not just complain about it to ourselves.

there are folks doing that Hal

~S~

 

[mbrooke]

It seems everybody knows that we are being taken for a ride but nobody want's to do anything about it. It's been suggested that we get our electrical contractors associations on board to petition your state. Also how about a petition signed by every electrical contractor and forwarded to the state?

We need to make some noise about this, not just complain about it to ourselves.

-Hal

Apparently they're having zoom meetings:




I say we band together and let them know how we really feel...

 

[hbiss]

"I will let the CMP determine if enough information was provided to make that call."

Talk about the fox guarding the hen house! With the CMP stacked with industry members what do you think is going to happen?? Do you think they are going to vote against themselves and probably lose their jobs?

Forget about the NEC. We need to educate the state electrical boards so they will act responsibly in the interest of their population.

-Hal

 

[yuhong]

Now in Canada there is this about a shortage of AFCI breakers: https://esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Newsroom/Electrical-Equipment-Shortage.pdf

 

[SSDriver]

 

[SSDriver]

 

[kwired]

Guys, I know I maybe in the minority here, and as to exact data I dont have it, I do however have some experience with multiple GC's who are doing their own wiring installations calling and complaining about AFCI "nuisance tripping" when they try to use their "table saws" or similar tool, when I explore what is happening I find multiple receptacles having loose connections, loose terminations on breaker, and one time even found a finish nail driven into a wire. When I correct the terminations, suddenly the table saw is no longer tripping the breaker. I have even just for kicks trade out AFCI to standard breaker prior to investigating to see what would happen, breaker didn't trip under table saw load, seeming to validate GC's impressions, but I went on to investigate and found those loose connections, sometimes a full turn and a half loose, tighten connections and replace the AFCI and the saw no longer tripped the breaker. To me that seems to indicate the AFCI is doing what it is promoted as doing. Sorry that is as close to "data" that I can come up with.

They have always been good at pointing out installation mistakes. Those loose connections in your table saw examples probably not so likely to start a fire presuming codes have otherwise been followed. Most the time the connection eventually fails to an open circuit condition.

I'd bet more electrical fires start from "glowing connections" (joule heating) and an AFCI sees those as a load and not a fault. There is no arcing until final stage when circuit is opening, at which point other than some sparks being possible ignition source the incident is basically over once the circuit is opened.

120 volts just isn't able to sustain arcing hardly at all. To do so you need to do like welding operations do and keep feeding material into the arc pool. this doesn't happen with fixed objects being the arcing points the gap can't grow very far at all with 120 volts before it can't sustain an arc any longer. They do have arcing detection for medium and high voltage lines that is pretty effective and reliable for the purpose.

 

[K8MHZ]

Keep an eye on Michigan. AFCI's are not required. The state should erupt in flames any time now.