breaker lockout types

newservice

Senior Member
Hello
Im doing a double wall oven in a residence on the first floor. Panel in the basement. Does someone have a link to the breaker lockout that would install permanently on a BR type breaker panel? The breaker is allowed to serve as the disconnect, but when not 'in sight' of the appliance, my understanding is the code requires the lockout to be permanently installed. All I can come up with are the lockouts that you remove when you're done locking out. Of course, maybe be I'm missing something. :eek:hmy:

Thank you for your replies.
 

newservice

Senior Member
Think I can answer my own question. My 96 code (yes I know 96) says '..the breaker can serve as the disconnect if it is within sight of the appliance or is CAPABLE of being locked in the open position.' My bad for not going to the code first.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
recent editions of NEC state that this breaker locking device must remain attached to the breaker when not locked, so many of the different "universal" lock attachments do not qualify as they only are fixed to the breaker when locked.

You usually need to look at the particular manufacturers accessories to find one that will work with what type of breaker you have.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
70A requires a lockout on single family?
Did you mean 70E?

Regardless the OP was questioning NEC (though it was 1996 edition), and disconnecting means. For past 25 - 30 years at least, if a disconnecting means is allowed to be remote from it's associated equipment it was almost always required to be lockable according to NEC. I think the intent had always been the locking device was to remain attached to the breaker even when not in use, but the wording was not always that clear until more recently.
 

cpinetree

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
Hello
Im doing a double wall oven in a residence on the first floor. Panel in the basement. Does someone have a link to the breaker lockout that would install permanently on a BR type breaker panel? The breaker is allowed to serve as the disconnect, but when not 'in sight' of the appliance, my understanding is the code requires the lockout to be permanently installed. All I can come up with are the lockouts that you remove when you're done locking out. Of course, maybe be I'm missing something. :eek:hmy:

Thank you for your replies.
We often cheat and use the Siemens ECPLD2
link to pdf: http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/internet-dms/btlv/Residential/Residential/docs_Circuit%20Breakers/SIE_IS_ECPLD2.pdf

Never been turned down but may not be technically correct (not UL listed for that type breaker)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I assume It is a listed part and it I not being used as per the listing.
Well there is looking at it from that perspective, which I really don't like. Been through this before on something as simple as cable staples, no where are they required to be listed, you can use unlisted ones all you want, but use a listed one on a cable it is not listed for and you will be punished buy the code gods:roll: Then comes the "classified breakers". They were classified to be used in other manufacturers panels - but the other manufacturers panel was never classified to accept other breakers - a no win situation no matter which side of the debate you want to be on.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
If it is properly held in place by the prongs grabbing the breaker shell it meets the intent of the code.
If it does not fit properly and is only held in place by the panel cover plate, then I would say it does not.
If I were an inspector I would apply that test if the particular installation was not covered in the device instructions. Or I would fail it if I was having a bad day.

Tapatalk...
 

newservice

Senior Member
Did you mean 70E?

Regardless the OP was questioning NEC (though it was 1996 edition), and disconnecting means. For past 25 - 30 years at least, if a disconnecting means is allowed to be remote from it's associated equipment it was almost always required to be lockable according to NEC. I think the intent had always been the locking device was to remain attached to the breaker even when not in use, but the wording was not always that clear until more recently.
I agree, seems logical to have it always attached, but any idea where I can buy one? Im all over the net and coming up empty for a CH BR series, which is a common single phase panel.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Appreciate the effort and I will look through this, but, it appears the device you reference is only attached by a screw to the handle and not permanently installable. Unless you want to lockout permanently. lol. But its a start. Hard to imagine code requiring such a seemingly obscure thing.
As a former breaker applications engineer I am not aware of a permanently attached or captive lock off device for miniature circuit breakers as they are after refers to.
You have to step up to the 'F' frame industrial/commercial breaker the actually has a bezle that the look of actual can grab on two and those having 2-3p they are actually screwed on to the provisions as included on the face of the breaker. That modification is a hasp type device that has provisions for a padlock.
But miniature breakers such as the C-H BR is not physically capable of a captive L/O device.

Another suggestion is to consider attaching a hasp type device to the cover with pop rivits thatcould be flipped over the toggle and locked into place preventing the breaker vfrom being turned on.
Not a stock item but something that may have to be modified.
You may have to think outside the box on this one.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Appreciate the effort and I will look through this, but, it appears the device you reference is only attached by a screw to the handle and not permanently installable. Unless you want to lockout permanently. lol. But its a start. Hard to imagine code requiring such a seemingly obscure thing.
First, I have not seen the item in question, but going by the information in the catalog, this has to be what you are after.

Read the footnotes on that page. The one I mention does not attach to the handle it attaches to the breaker "escutcheon", my guess is so will the Siemens model mentioned earlier.

It is not required to be "permanently" attached it is required to remain attached when not used for locking.

There are very few of these that are "permanently" attached meaning they are mostly all removable without damaging them or the breaker. Only ones I have seen that come close to being "permanently" attached are the one's Square D uses for the I-Line series, and even those can be removed, but is a little trickier as their attachment wasn't designed to be removed too easily.
 

newservice

Senior Member
First, I have not seen the item in question, but going by the information in the catalog, this has to be what you are after.

Read the footnotes on that page. The one I mention does not attach to the handle it attaches to the breaker "escutcheon", my guess is so will the Siemens model mentioned earlier.

It is not required to be "permanently" attached it is required to remain attached when not used for locking.

There are very few of these that are "permanently" attached meaning they are mostly all removable without damaging them or the breaker. Only ones I have seen that come close to being "permanently" attached are the one's Square D uses for the I-Line series, and even those can be removed, but is a little trickier as their attachment wasn't designed to be removed too easily.
Fair enough, I will sort through that. My use of 'permanently' may have been wrong. I do see that this attaches to the escutcheon, I think that would be the top part of the breaker? Also reading the previous post from the product engineer saying he doesn't know of anything like that for miniatures. Which I have heard them called.
Maybe I'll call EATON on Monday see if they can help. Absent that, and since my inspector will be clueless on this anyway, I may just hang a small bag of the screw on lockouts by the panel and write "lockouts for appliance breakers" in red magic marker on the panel backboard. :lol:
 

newservice

Senior Member
*Update: The product info for the BRLW says ' Padlockable device for locking the handle of single-, two- or three-pole Type BR Circuit Breakers and single-pole of a Type BD Duplex or one independent outside pole of a Type BQ or BQC Quadplex circuit breakers."

The footnote, 5, says...Escutcheon mounted: device mounted semipermanently to the face of the circuit breaker and secured by the loadcenter deadfront.'

Bingo. Ill order one up and let you know, and thanks all.
 

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
You can find them for most manufacturers. They are held in place by the panel cover. No screws are involved. They are brand specific. They have a ring for a small suitcase type lock. Big box stores have them. Supply houses have them.
 
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