Building Official Overreach

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mhanson

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Location
Redwood City, CA
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General Journeyman Electrician
Just looking for your thoughts on an Over Zellous Building Inspector.
Background: Just completed a Small Residential Service upgrade which included adding several new circuits to Bedrooms, Kitchen, Bath, Garage, etc... all new wiring meeting currents 2020 NEC code standards. during the project we decided with the homeowner, to replace the few remaining Knob and Tube circuits with modern Romex type wiring, this would eliminate all of the old Knob and Tube wiring.
When Inspector arrived for Final Inspection, He stated that since we rewired the entire home, we will need to make current the entire home, keep in mind this is NOT a home remodel and plaster walls are still intact, no added/removed walls etc... asking us to add several wall receptacles to meet the 6', 12' spacing rules.
Homeowner is quite upset as this will add several thousand dollars to her project, and I believe the inspector is over stepping.
appreciate your thoughts,
Thank You

Building Official is citing the following code sections:

California Electric Code 89.101.3:

The provisions of this code shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair of equipment, use and occupancy, location, maintenance, removal, and demolition of every building or structure or any appurtenances connected or attached to such buildings or structures throughout the State of California.



California Existing Building Code section 503.1

Alterations to any building or structure shall comply with the requirements of the California Building Code or California Residential Code, as applicable, for new construction. Alterations shall be such that the existing building or structure is not less complying with the provisions of the California Building Code or California Residential Code, as applicable than the existing building or structure was prior to the alteration.
 
Since you rewired the dwelling 99% of the building departments I have worked with would rewire the electrical to meet current code requirements. If you had just added a few receptacles and circuits they would not require the existing wiring be brought up to current code.
 
curt swartz said:
Since you rewired the dwelling 99% of the building departments I have worked with would rewire the electrical to meet current code requirements. If you had just added a few receptacles and circuits they would not require the existing wiring be brought up to current code.
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Really? I don't see any language in the NEC or the IEBC that would say "if you rewire 80% of the building to current requirements, you must rewire the remaining 20% as well." For a rewire-only project where you are not otherwise modifying spaces.

Cheers, Wayne
 
mhanson said:
Just looking for your thoughts on an Over Zellous Building Inspector.
Background: Just completed a Small Residential Service upgrade which included adding several new circuits to Bedrooms, Kitchen, Bath, Garage, etc... all new wiring meeting currents 2020 NEC code standards. during the project we decided with the homeowner, to replace the few remaining Knob and Tube circuits with modern Romex type wiring, this would eliminate all of the old Knob and Tube wiring.
When Inspector arrived for Final Inspection, He stated that since we rewired the entire home, we will need to make current the entire home, keep in mind this is NOT a home remodel and plaster walls are still intact, no added/removed walls etc... asking us to add several wall receptacles to meet the 6', 12' spacing rules.
Homeowner is quite upset as this will add several thousand dollars to her project, and I believe the inspector is over stepping.
appreciate your thoughts,
Thank You

Building Official is citing the following code sections:

California Electric Code 89.101.3:

The provisions of this code shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair of equipment, use and occupancy, location, maintenance, removal, and demolition of every building or structure or any appurtenances connected or attached to such buildings or structures throughout the State of California.



California Existing Building Code section 503.1

Alterations to any building or structure shall comply with the requirements of the California Building Code or California Residential Code, as applicable, for new construction. Alterations shall be such that the existing building or structure is not less complying with the provisions of the California Building Code or California Residential Code, as applicable than the existing building or structure was prior to the alteration.
Click to expand...
I have mixed feelings here. I have made the phone call to get a ruling BEFORE I embarked on a repair or alteration before to get the ruling on what will be required up front. I would expect they my want an upgrade especially GFI's grounding etc. on the circuits and outlets I touched. However, 503.1 seems to sys specifically that you DON'T have to upgrade the entire house to current code. "Alterations shall be such that the existing building or structure is not less complying..."
 
wwhitney said:
Really? I don't see any language in the NEC or the IEBC that would say "if you rewire 80% of the building to current requirements, you must rewire the remaining 20% as well." For a rewire-only project where you are not otherwise modifying spaces.

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...
Its not NEC but local jurisdictions. Some of them will require the entire kitchen electrical to be brought up to current code if you just replace the countertops.
 
curt swartz said:
Its not NEC but local jurisdictions. Some of them will require the entire kitchen electrical to be brought up to current code if you just replace the countertops.
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CRC R105.2 exempts countertops from requiring a permit, so such a requirement is both ridiculous and unenforceable.

up.codes

Chapter 1: Scope and Application, California Residential Code 2022 | UpCodes

UpCodes offers a consolidated resource of construction and building code grouped by jurisdiction
up.codes up.codes

Cheers, Wayne
 
mhanson said:
during the project we decided with the homeowner, to replace the few remaining Knob and Tube circuits with modern Romex type wiring, this would eliminate all of the old Knob and Tube wiring.
When Inspector arrived for Final Inspection, He stated that since we rewired the entire home
Click to expand...
When the scope changes from a panel change with new circuits to a panel change with an entire re-wire is when you need to bring the entire house up to current code, at least as I understand it.
 
wwhitney said:
Really? I don't see any language in the NEC or the IEBC that would say "if you rewire 80% of the building to current requirements, you must rewire the remaining 20% as well." For a rewire-only project where you are not otherwise modifying spaces.

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...
That type of rule is not in the NEC, but it is a common type of rule adopted by local building departments. Our local rule is if you replace 50% of the wring in a building, all of the wring in the building must be brought up to the current code.
However, I am not seeing such a rule in the rules that have been posted in this thread.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
That type of rule is not in the NEC, but it is a common type of rule adopted by local building departments. Our local rule is if you replace 50% of the wring in a building, all of the wring in the building must be brought up to the current code.
However, I am not seeing such a rule in the rules that have been posted in this thread.
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I think you hit the nail on the head with this comment, "rule adopted by local building dept."
The next question is "Was it formally adopted and codified?" or is it just a because I said so.
 
This is when you break it down into separate permits spaced out lol. The Cool retired inspector around here said you have to wait 6 month between permits not to trigger some items, such as the one you are dealing with.
IF you have not added them yet don't lol and just wait.
 
wwhitney said:
CRC R105.2 exempts countertops from requiring a permit, so such a requirement is both ridiculous and unenforceable.
Click to expand...
Very interesting.

In Buena Park California AHJ requires current code compliance in any room with a new sink.
 
mhanson said:
California Electric Code 89.101.3:

The provisions of this code shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair of equipment, use and occupancy, location, maintenance, removal, and demolition of every building or structure or any appurtenances connected or attached to such buildings or structures throughout the State of California.
Click to expand...
CEC chapter 89 is amended out by most AHJ jurisdictions in my area, due to the permit exemptions in CEC §89.108.4
 
wwhitney said:
CRC R105.2 exempts countertops from requiring a permit, so such a requirement is both ridiculous and unenforceable.
Click to expand...
Since parts of the residential code & NFPA-70 are rival codes, are both alway adopted by local jurisdictions, or is this only found where specifically amended in?
 
ramsy said:
Since parts of the residential code & NFPA-70 are rival codes
Click to expand...
California, like some jurisdictions, only adopts the "building" portion of the IRC, but that includes R105.2. I didn't compare CRC R105.2 to IRC R105.2, so I don't know if California amended it.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
California, like some jurisdictions, only adopts the "building" portion of the IRC, but that includes R105.2. I didn't compare CRC R105.2 to IRC R105.2, so I don't know if California amended it.

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...
Ok, I see. However, since R105.2 lists exemptions to permits, it may also be subject to AHJ scrutiny or removal.
 
ramsy said:
Ok, I see. However, since R105.2 lists exemptions to permits, it may also be subject to AHJ scrutiny or removal.
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In California, not at the local level, unless a local jurisdiction has a "geographic, climactic, or geologic" justification for an amendment, which it passes as an ordinance and properly files with the state. You can look up your local jurisdiction's amendments here:

Local Amendments to Building Standards - Ordinances

www.dgs.ca.gov www.dgs.ca.gov

Cheers, Wayne
 
mhanson said:
Alterations shall be such that the existing building or structure is not less complying with the provisions of the California Building Code or California Residential Code, as applicable than the existing building or structure was prior to the alteration.
Click to expand...
IMO what you've done complies with this. Removing the K&T certainly does not make it less compliant.
 
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