can lights

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radiopet said:
GESH....why did I not think of that and making easy money versus writing books and conducting seminars.......:(
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yea met to:roll:

Around here the better drywallers just do a walk through with a can marking paint, like we use for underground cable tracing, and spray on the unfinished floor, a circle for cans, rectangle for a receptacle or switch but with an S next to it, light openings and smokes are a dot, vents are done in the same shape of the vent, even the studs are marked short line leading away from the wall.

I have the circle cutter for my Roto zip which works great for old work cans.

But I hate when they miss openings, and I back charge, its worded in my contract for new work, at first when they went to routers I hated them as they wouldn't buy the shorter more costly follower bits and would use the longer and cheaper drill bits which they would get into our wires even cut off the romex where it entered the box, after having to pay for a few expensive repairs they found out those follower bits wasn't so expensive after all. also when this method first started around here, they would miss openings all the time, but after many of the contractors started back charging they improved 1,000%
 
radiopet said:
GESH....why did I not think of that and making easy money versus writing books and conducting seminars.......:(
Click to expand...

yea met to:roll:

Around here the better drywallers just do a walk through with a can marking paint, like we use for underground cable tracing, and spray on the unfinished floor, a circle for cans, rectangle for a receptacle or switch but with an S next to it, light openings and smokes are a dot, vents are done in the same shape of the vent, even the studs are marked short line leading away from the wall.

I have the circle cutter for my Roto zip which works great for old work cans.

But I hate when they miss openings, and I back charge, its worded in my contract for new work, at first when they went to routers (about 1991) I hated them as they wouldn't buy the shorter more costly follower bits and would use the longer and cheaper drill bits which they would get into our wires even cut off the romex where it entered the box, after having to pay for a few expensive repairs they found out those follower bits wasn't so expensive after all. also when this method first started around here, they would miss openings all the time, but after many of the contractors started back charging they improved 1,000%
 
Don't you hate it when the drywaller cuts his hole 3/4" off and corrects it by hammering the recessed can over to match his hole?:mad: All that time getting the line perfectly straight for nothing!
 
I don't know what all the fuss is about. :-? I do what the op wants all the time. I just finished roughing a kitchen. I left my wiring in place where 8 cans are to go and marked the locations on a plan. I will cut the lights in after the ceiling is up. I need to be closer to ceiling joists and I will have a better shot at lining up the cans on cabinets after the cabinets are in place.

I have installed thousands of remodel cans. I have never seen drywall sag and if the can is coming out of the ceiling after install you are not installing them correctly. Also if you can't cut the hole correctly then you might consider finding another line of work.

To the op, don't let these guys deter you. You had a good idea that is perfectly legal and will result in making things easier for yourself.
 
I don't understand this closer to the joist thing. The standard can is designed purposely to maintain space from the framing as required by 410.116. Normally the can will have a 1" space when you are allowed the minimum of 1/2" space from the joist. Installing the recessed retro so that it touches the joist is a violation. What do you gain 1/2" - heck I have banged on the standard can and gotten it that close.
 
IC cans can be in contact with combustible materials. With the mounting bars and can frame it is often impossible to get tight to a joist with a new work can. Using remodel cans can make a 1-2 inch difference which in a kitchen application is a big deal.
 
Split Bolt said:
Don't you hate it when the drywaller cuts his hole 3/4" off and corrects it by hammering the recessed can over to match his hole?:mad: All that time getting the line perfectly straight for nothing!
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yes and I may back out on doing my own drywall , and i hate the way they bang the cans around and bend brackets to hit the hole. Thats why I am tempted to use the remodel cans but no one seems to agree.
 
Thanks electricman

Thanks electricman

electricmanscott said:
I don't know what all the fuss is about. :-? I do what the op wants all the time. I just finished roughing a kitchen. I left my wiring in place where 8 cans are to go and marked the locations on a plan. I will cut the lights in after the ceiling is up. I need to be closer to ceiling joists and I will have a better shot at lining up the cans on cabinets after the cabinets are in place.

I have installed thousands of remodel cans. I have never seen drywall sag and if the can is coming out of the ceiling after install you are not installing them correctly. Also if you can't cut the hole correctly then you might consider finding another line of work.

To the op, don't let these guys deter you. You had a good idea that is perfectly legal and will result in making things easier for yourself.
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I can cut the holes believe me I was a general contractor for 30 yrs before scaleing back to electrical calls. I ve never noticed the remodel cans to cause a sag but if you return later with a straight edge you can ofter detect a slight sag. I was just saying the small 5'' I looked at were much lighter and should not have much chance to sag, or drop thru the dry wall like some on here have claimed they will
 
I would think that most of the contractors here have successfully used remodel style cans, including myself. And when I had to do what the OP is suggesting (installing remodel cans after the fact), I've never failed an inspection.

That being said, my experience has been that, at times, homeowners will end up pulling remodel cans out of the ceiling when they're trying to change lamps. Even though it's not my fault, who looks bad?

So my preference is to use new construction cans, or barring that, to get a screw or two through the remodeler can into wood to help support it. At times, when the roof is shallow, you can even get a short screw through the top of the can into the roof sheeting.
 
electricmanscott said:
IC cans can be in contact with combustible materials. With the mounting bars and can frame it is often impossible to get tight to a joist with a new work can. Using remodel cans can make a 1-2 inch difference which in a kitchen application is a big deal.
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BS...:) 1 inch is the most you can get closer and I can get within 1/2" with the bracket of an H7ICT- so 1/2" is the difference. I misspoke on the ICT - I thought they had to be 1/2" from wood-- I think they used to anyway.

Retro cans cost me upward of $16.00 while a H7ICT is $6.95. If you think that is worth a 1/2" then by all means but it is a rare situation where it is that important.
 
jetlag said:
Will you get flagged on new work for leaving the wires in place to install remodeling type can lights instead of mounting the new work can lights.
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Probably not. We occaisionally find it better to cut the cans in afterwards. Never been flagged but they don't really look too closely here ;)


We sometimes do the same with island pendants too. Wait....you can't hang a 16 ounce pendant from a cut in box. Nevermind.
 
electricguy61 said:
I would think that most of the contractors here have successfully used remodel style cans, including myself. And when I had to do what the OP is suggesting (installing remodel cans after the fact), I've never failed an inspection.

That being said, my experience has been that, at times, homeowners will end up pulling remodel cans out of the ceiling when they're trying to change lamps. Even though it's not my fault, who looks bad?

So my preference is to use new construction cans, or barring that, to get a screw or two through the remodeler can into wood to help support it. At times, when the roof is shallow, you can even get a short screw through the top of the can into the roof sheeting.
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Thats why never put a 20 amp rec in a remod box a customer will jerk the cord out fast , the 20 is much tighter than a 15 and they pull the box right thru the dry wall. I can mount the remod can 1/2 '' from joists and screw it with a piece of cement board between , i guess that wont burn
 
Dennis Alwon said:
BS...:) 1 inch is the most you can get closer and I can get within 1/2" with the bracket of an H7ICT- so 1/2" is the difference. I misspoke on the ICT - I thought they had to be 1/2" from wood-- I think they used to anyway.

Retro cans cost me upward of $16.00 while a H7ICT is $6.95. If you think that is worth a 1/2" then by all means but it is a rare situation where it is that important.
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Just saying what my experience has been and after god knows how many cans I've installed I know what I'm talking about. :cool: I just went through this last week a at a kitchen job and I opted to use remodels instead.

You should shop around for a new remodel can.

5" Elite IC new work $7.67
5" Elite IC Remodel $7.66

Tghe remodel is cheaper. ;)

Pennies from heaven suckers! :D
 
electricmanscott said:
You should shop around for a new remodel can.

5" Elite IC new work $7.67
5" Elite IC Remodel $7.66

Tghe remodel is cheaper. ;)

Pennies from heaven suckers! :D
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Must be they don't sell many retros here so they get a premium for them. I just can't make a new work job a retro job if it doesn't have to be. Sheetrockers cut them out so it isn't my problem and the labor is much less on a new construction can.

I am working on a house that has 70 or so cans and just bid one that has 220 cans--- no way - my guys would kill me if we had to retro them.
 
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