catching the plumbers

[BryanMD]

Originally Posted by emahler
getting EC's to work together is harder than getting Israel and Palestine to make up...

If they were interested in "working together" they would have stayed with any one of the several previous employers they had and made it further up the management food chain.

In my experience... most one truck company EC's exist because of one of several personality flaws that kept them from moving up or even just holding on to that foreman job they once had somewhere.

eg: the alcoholic who did take offs in the tavern with pitchers of beer flowing all night but had to have his helper wake him up at 7am so he could get his hours in (I could go on).

 

[crossman]

Of those 20 or so raw green $8/hr guys on that crew how may will 'get it' and move up? Not enough for the EC to pay more than the $8 until they show they are worth more. But for the 2 or 3 that do get it? they'll be able to apply those early lessons every day for the rest of their career.

I agree with you completely.

 

[wireman71]

The real problem is the lack of decent paying jobs in a field easier than being a electrician. People in my area know the trades pay good and go into them because there aren't a lot of other options if you don't have a college degree. Factories? What are those? Made in the USA, HUH? The problem isn't EC's not sticking together but that there isn't enough work for everyone to make money on. And plumbers make good money because who would want to be a plumber?

 

[peter d]

The problem isn't EC's not sticking together but that there isn't enough work for everyone to make money on.

Right now, things are slowing down, but for the past however many years, no electricians that I know have ever lacked for work. There is actually a labor shortage of skilled electricians.

And plumbers make good money because who would want to be a plumber?

Electrical work is a highly skilled trade that has the same basic requirements as the plumbing trade (4 year apprencticeship, journeyman and master licenses, etc.) and requires basically the same amount of investment to start a plumbing business (not a fly-by-night operation but a real service and installation business). There is no reason why EC's should not make as much money as plumbers.

 

[220/221]

most one truck company EC's exist because of one of several personality flaws that kept them from moving up or even just holding on to that foreman job they once had somewhere

Like the inability to put up with stupidity and BS?

That was always my disorder and I never really fit in.

 

[BryanMD]

Like the inability to put up with stupidity and BS?
That was always my disorder and I never really fit in.

Sure, there are those too (I have my own war stories as well).

Parts of the overall issue why there isn't more 'working together" is that there are so many different ways that different EC's work in the first place; and how they came to be what they are (or aren't) today.

FTM I'll ignore the unlicensed trunk slammers and the really big EC's.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the dysfunctional one truck EC (who in most instances is actually a damned good mechanic). But there is also the one truck EC who perhaps specializes in some arcane niche. And then you can separate these two types by their business skill level and ability/interest in growth. (That makes 4+ groups so far for those counting)

Then there is the small up and comer. No idea where he got the capital to get the trucks and tools but he sure looks busy. (Read: mortgaged to his eye balls and one sour job away from going under.)

The ones who have a good accountant & lawyer, and the market holds, and he can keep his guys, and... check back in 5 years.
(Now we're up to 6+ groups)

Then the established small EC. He was probably bigger at some earlier point but retrenched to a level he was more comfortable managing. Has 1 or 2 well paid foremen who run his crews while he bids and sells (and plays golf with the local GC's), attends the ABC bull roasts and has his apprentices in school.
Good for him!

Then there are the medium sized companies. Probably inherited and has a good local reputation; owns *everything* outright.

(These last two have learned about accountants and lawyers by now)

So these are the basic 8 groups that are likely to be reading this.

But then we divide them further by market focus.
Resi? Commercial? Industrial? Service? Construction? LV? FA?
Some mixture of several in most cases.

Aside from everyone owning a pair of Kleins just what do these owners really have in common that they should be "working together"? In anything?

Their employees have more in common than the owners do (hint).

 

[goldstar]

And plumbers make good money because who would want to be a plumber?

Probably the most profound statement/question yet.

In my experience... most one truck company EC's exist because of one of several personality flaws that kept them from moving up or even just holding on to that foreman job they once had somewhere.

Or you finally come to the realization that the boss is making all the $$ and doling out to you exactly what you initially agreed to work for irrespective of the fact that you are now working twice as hard and twice as long than when you first signed on while he's always thinking that you should be greatful that he's given you a job. (Sorry, didn't mean to go off but it struck a nerve.)

I don't think the issue is really about "working together" but rather about getting the amount of $$ for a job based on what the market will bear. For example, if the going rate for a 200 amp resi service upgrade is going for say $2400 in your area why would someone come along and take the job for $1600 ? Don't get me wrong, I love America and the free enterprise system and our abhility to compete but a $600 disparity on a job like this is just plain bad business. If you're in a highly competitive area and you out-bid the next guy by $100 that's one thing but leaving $600 on the table is not only bad business - it's stupidity.

I'm sure the vast majority of us have come up through the trade and have learned all those technical things that make us good mechanics. However, I believe one of the things that should be a requirement to getting an EC license in any given State is having some formal training in business development or management. Learn how to do your own accounting, learn how to perform a break-even analysis, learn how to price up and bid on a job, research what the going prices are for work in your area, etc. Many of us ended up in this trade by default because, as 220/221 pointed out, we just couldn't put up with the stupidity and BS working for someone else.

I once had a friend refer me to a GC who was interested in changing EC's. All he did was complain about what a lousey job his current EC was doing, that he seldom showed up on the job or met deadlines, etc. I'm always leary to hop on the bandwagon in situations like this because I'm only hearing one side of the story but he asked me to give him a price to wire the next house he was building. So, I did and faxed it over to him. I believe my price was $14k (all the usual things, 2 AC units, double wall oven, big kitchen, etc.). He called me the following day and said he couldn't make out the price on the estimate........."Was it $1400.00 ?" I said "No, it was $14K". His response was "Gee, my electrician has been doing these houses for $6K". I then told him to stop complaining about your electrician, hire a limo and go pick him up, take him out to dinner, drive him home and tuck him into bed !!!

 

[BryanMD]

Or you finally come to the realization that the boss is making all the $$ and doling out to you exactly what you initially agreed to work for irrespective of the fact that you are now working twice as hard and twice as long than when you first signed on while he's always thinking that you should be grateful that he's given you a job. (Sorry, didn't mean to go off but it struck a nerve.)

I feel you Goldstar and I'm sure almost everyone else who reads it does too.
And I'm not dumping on you directly just using your quote as a starting point.
(Sounds like your last boss was a jerk.)

So now the capable foreman who should have been getting paid OT for those 10 or 20 (or more) extra hours a week he was clocking (but for some reason didn't) but was also driving a company truck burning company gas and had 2 or 3 paid vacation weeks and health insurance etc. but at age 35-40 or so doesn't see it possible to shift to another company to do better for himself...

Maybe he really does have his personal life in order and has the support of his family and a few GC contacts so he hangs up the shingle and goes out on his own. I hope he does well.

But in too many instances (most?) what he really accomplishes is to buy himself a job. DO NOT confuse what he is doing with running a business.

Learn how to do your own accounting, learn how to perform a break-even analysis, learn how to price up and bid on a job, research what the going prices are for work in your area, etc.

Agreed.

I don't think the issue is really about "working together" but rather about getting the amount of $$ for a job based on what the market will bear... but leaving $600 on the table is not only bad business - it's stupidity.

Mostly agreed.

Some sort of working together by the established EC's to educate the new guys is needed and is needed way early in the life of that new EC's "business".

And/Or do it when they were are still an employee (and aren't competition yet) and probably along with better treatment by the employer.

But for now, who is the "mentor" for this guy? Where is he supposed to get the skills? The other small EC's he meets in the supply house doing the same things he is doing? The one established EC he used to work with/for and managed to stay on good terms with?

Forums like this are a good start to get some questions brewing in your head; but you will need more to get real answers. And how many of them have the time or are willing to make the time to read here?

Doing much more than a casual conversation between EC's and you'll end up with someone accusing you of collusion.

 

[goldstar]

(Sounds like your last boss was a jerk.)

I've worked for some really good bosses in my time. Unfortunately, either the jobs didn't warrant more $$ or there just wasn't enough $$ generated by the business. Some of my worst jobs as an employee were when I worked in NYC as a fire alarm technician and got "downsized"............twice. I met the lowest forms of human life in that end of the business world. Most of the companies were glorified trunk slammers who didn't really know how to run a business and to make matters worse they were third level sub-contractors on major projects and as such were the last ones to get paid. Anyway, the last job I had (just before opening my own EC business) wasn't in the EC trade. After the 2nd downsizing I ended up selling furniture for my best friend. It was a cash business (need I say more ?). Long story, short he was a control freak. If you went out to dinner with him he would order for you. No matter what you did for him or his business it was either the wrong thing or it wasn't good enough. I guess the straw that broke the camel's back was when we made a delivery trip near Atlantic City. We ended up in a casino on the craps tables where he had (at one time) over $10K on the table. After that point in time I couldn't stand to hear any more BS about how the economy is down, we didn't do as well as last year, yada, yada, yada. Yet, he still went out to dinner 4 or 5 times a week and bought $100 bottles of wine, etc. We haven't spoken in over 10 years.

Anyway, getting back to employees in general, if a person or company in our trade merely wants to hire on help to pull cable, nail boxes on studs, etc then they can hire day workers for that matter. However, when the jobs call for more talented people, someone who will act and perform in the same manner as the owner, someone who is familiar with the dangers of our trade and knows how to handle various situations then that's where the problems start. You now want to keep that person but you have to pay more $$, give him more benefits and perks, etc. and that's just not going to happen with a $10/hr employee.

As result of this I choose to be a 1-man shop. I know what it takes to run my business at the level I want it to be. I know there's a limited dollar amount that I can generate as one working person and I don't take on exceptionally big work. When I have jobs that require additional personnel I have 3 or 4 friends that are EC's in the same circumstance and we swap time back and forth. I know what I would want as an employee and I don't believe I could provide that level of comfort for someone unless I choose to bid on large commercial work. But, I don't see that happening any time soon.

All in all my perspective is that management (in general) has failed the working class. Greed does funny things to people. Look at companies like Enron.

Talk to you later......gotta go to church for Xmas Eve.

Regards,

Phil

 

[360Youth]

Same here. I've had offers, without me looking for them, making a couple bucks more per hour. Fact is I like where I work.

Here, here!

Who says we did catch them?

In my area plumbers charge and make much more then ECs.

Here, too.

 

[khixxx]

All in all my perspective is that management (in general) has failed the working class. Greed does funny things to people. Look at companies like Enron.

Phil

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him powers.

 

[jrannis]

Originally Posted by emahler
getting EC's to work together is harder than getting Israel and Palestine to make up...

If they were interested in "working together" they would have stayed with any one of the several previous employers they had and made it further up the management food chain.

In my experience... most one truck company EC's exist because of one of several personality flaws that kept them from moving up or even just holding on to that foreman job they once had somewhere.

eg: the alcoholic who did take offs in the tavern with pitchers of beer flowing all night but had to have his helper wake him up at 7am so he could get his hours in (I could go on).

Or maybe they like the idea of making $100 plus per hour instead of $35 per hour. Take off any time they want, have three day weekends, and enjoy life.

 

[stevenj76]

My old boss is losing money.

My old boss is losing money.

They're complaining because now they're in the hole.

Well thats what you get for fully wiring a 1300sqft house including tel and catv for $3500 over and over again (gas hot water.) Rough and trim. Its not a right-to-work state.

So my boss is lowballing against all these other lowball shops, they are competeing into the below $2/sqft range. The guys each have 2 rockstars a day. He wants us to work 10 and call it 8.

The plumbers?? Having a good time. Radio cranked, takes 3 hours for 2 guys to drag in a fiberglass shower/tub liner. 45 minute lunch, 30 minute breaks, leave early. They must have all 8-ball crews at that contractor, but he's still the lowball plumber!

Anyways, I knew that kind of work was just a phase for me, it can't last, its not sustainable. The shops that do it profitably around here buy romex by the train load. Do plumbers buy PEX by the trainload?

 

[emahler]

Or maybe they like the idea of making $100 plus per hour instead of $35 per hour. Take off any time they want, have three day weekends, and enjoy life.

show me a 1 man company that is taking $100/hr in salary (i'll even accept the perks that the business pays for) and i'll show you....i can't think of anything that funny...

most 1-2 man shop owners make less working for themselves, than they did working for someone else...

 

[goldstar]

most 1-2 man shop owners make less working for themselves, than they did working for someone else...

Not sure where you're getting your statistics from but I, for one, am making more now than I ever did working for someone else. Don't get me wrong, I'm far from being a millionaire, but I pay my bills on time and have more than enough left over to support my family.

When I worked for someone else, granted I had benefits and perks but when you go through the check-out line at the supermarket the clerk doesn't want to know how your retirement plan is doing or whether you have health care insurance - just fork over the $$$. I can remember times when I'd come home at the end of the week with my paycheck and could barely afford a pizza.

If you're not making it as a 1 or 2-man shop today there's got to be something wrong. The economy could possibly be severely depressed in your area. Whatever the case may be, if you're doing work just to break even stop now and open a 7-11.

 

[BryanMD]

Or maybe they like the idea of making $100 plus per hour instead of $35 per hour. Take off any time they want, have three day weekends, and enjoy life.

You can charge a $100/hr rate but that doesn't equal $100 salary.

most 1-2 man shop owners make less working for themselves, than they did working for someone else...

BINGO!

For every reasonable assertion made here (look for qualifying terms like "most" etc) of what is generally recognized as a common truth there will always be some who say "hey guy! *I'm* the exception to that rule".

And maybe it really is true (if so... well guy, good for you!)
And both *could* be true... and likely are to *some* extent.
(even with the fish stories attached)

Personally, I'd rather work 50hr x 40 weeks than 40hr x 50 weeks.
Or even 55 hrs x 35 weeks. (Run the numbers sometime)

Maybe when we get to a universal healthcare system and health insurance isn't joined at the hip to employment status more employee's could do it.

But for most *companies* it is really hard to stay in business when your mechanics aren't available to strap on the tools every day.

Merry Christmas Everyone.

 

[emahler]

Not sure where you're getting your statistics from but I, for one, am making more now than I ever did working for someone else. Don't get me wrong, I'm far from being a millionaire, but I pay my bills on time and have more than enough left over to support my family.

When I worked for someone else, granted I had benefits and perks but when you go through the check-out line at the supermarket the clerk doesn't want to know how your retirement plan is doing or whether you have health care insurance - just fork over the $$$. I can remember times when I'd come home at the end of the week with my paycheck and could barely afford a pizza.

If you're not making it as a 1 or 2-man shop today there's got to be something wrong. The economy could possibly be severely depressed in your area. Whatever the case may be, if you're doing work just to break even stop now and open a 7-11.

i don't dispute that there are 1-2 man shops out there making more than they did as an employee...we were one of them...

I will concede that if you worked for a company that paid you $15/hr with no benefits, it's quite easy to earn more on your own...

but, and there is always a but, look around the local supply house...how many contractors might be making $1000/week payroll on their own (vs. $500/week for someone else) but are working 80-90 hrs to do it? make sure you account for all those unbilled hours..all the time spent looking at prints till midnight...time spent sending out bills...entering checks...depositing checks...all that time...

so, yes, it can be done...but it's the minority that succeeds, not the majority..

 

[goldstar]

make sure you account for all those unbilled hours..all the time spent looking at prints till midnight...time spent sending out bills...entering checks...depositing checks...all that time...

so, yes, it can be done...but it's the minority that succeeds, not the majority..

You're right. I don't take any of that into account because I do it at my leisure. If I had to do it with a gun to my head it would be work that I should get paid for.

Believe me the only thing I like about the administrative end of a business is going to the bank. Don't like doing takeoffs, pricing up jobs, practicing my sales skills, etc. I'd rather be out there with my tools doing service upgrades. But, once you cross over to the side where you have multiple employees then you're an employer more than a worker and your admin skills better be sharp or you'll go down in flames. I think I said this earlier but there needs to be more administrative and leadership training for people going into trades so they don't end up out there on a wing and a prayer.

 

[emahler]

You're right. I don't take any of that into account because I do it at my leisure. If I had to do it with a gun to my head it would be work that I should get paid for.

Believe me the only thing I like about the administrative end of a business is going to the bank. Don't like doing takeoffs, pricing up jobs, practicing my sales skills, etc. I'd rather be out there with my tools doing service upgrades. But, once you cross over to the side where you have multiple employees then you're an employer more than a worker and your admin skills better be sharp or you'll go down in flames. I think I said this earlier but there needs to be more administrative and leadership training for people going into trades so they don't end up out there on a wing and a prayer.

i've been grassroots (very grassroots) lobbying for years that NJ should require 2 licenses to go into business in the trades...1 license is the current 1 - a technical license...the other should be a business license - not MBA level, but definitely Jr. College level...

 

[480sparky]

You're right. I don't take any of that into account because I do it at my leisure. If I had to do it with a gun to my head it would be work that I should get paid for.

But you do have the proverbial 'gun to your head'. You still have bills to pay. If you worked for someone else, would you gladly work evenings and weekends off the clock? You'd say "No," wouldn't you? So how is working for yourself any different? You still are working, and working for someone, it's just that someone is you.