catching the plumbers

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brian john said:
Some of the better businessmen I have worked with have employees that do some of the lousiest installations. Being good in one aspect does not necessarily lead quality in the other.

some of the best technical guys i know have employees that do some of the lousiest installations...they never charged enough to hire good installers...

my argument has never been that technical knowledge is useless, but rather lack of business knowledge is ignorant...
 
some of the best technical guys i know have employees that do some of the lousiest installations...they never charged enough to hire good installers...

At least around here these guys charge as much or more than the going rates.

my argument has never been that technical knowledge is useless, but rather lack of business knowledge is ignorant...

Not following this thought, explain or expand upon PLEASE.
 
In just reading this thread, it is a great example of how our industry is and how the answers may not be so easy.
There are good arguments (discussion) for both sides, just what is a good compromise/answer???

I will say, something does need to change. Where I am, I see too many small ECs who are really electricians and not contractors, they are in business because the grass looked greener from afar.
I would venture to say the education will help, but how much I cannot say.
 
Ah but this is AMERICA and the free market will weed them out, all we need is another government agency with bureaucratic nonsense, configured TO PROTECT THE CHILDREN and next thing you know tamper proof receptacles will be mandatory in residence.
 
md and brian....i finally figured out how to explain it...the license is not intended to create new laws, it's to make sure that guys know and comply with the existing...i'll expand later...
 
emahler said:
md and brian....i finally figured out how to explain it...the license is not intended to create new laws, it's to make sure that guys know and comply with the existing...i'll expand later...
Make a law that says you have to take a test to prove you have the knowledge to comply with other laws that already exist? Crazy. Next thing you know, we'll have to take a driver's test and get a driver's license. :smile:
 
mdshunk said:
Make a law that says you have to take a test to prove you have the knowledge to comply with other laws that already exist? Crazy. Next thing you know, we'll have to take a driver's test and get a driver's license. :smile:

Drive the demolition derby around here... I mean rush hour, and see how effective that is. :roll:
 
iwire said:
Who says we did catch them?

In my area plumbers charge and make much more then ECs.

I don't know how it is in other areas, but there are no requirements for an electrician to be a J-man to be on his own truck, so to speak. An electrical company needs one Master electrician, and thats it. Everyone else is considered under his supervision.

Not so for the plumber. To be on his own truck, he needs to be a J-man. So if a plumbing company has 3 trucks out doing work, 3 J-men. EC, 3 trucks, 3 anybodies.
 
JohnJ0906 said:
I don't know how it is in other areas, but there are no requirements for an electrician to be a J-man to be on his own truck, so to speak. An electrical company needs one Master electrician, and thats it. Everyone else is considered under his supervision.

Not so for the plumber. To be on his own truck, he needs to be a J-man. So if a plumbing company has 3 trucks out doing work, 3 J-men. EC, 3 trucks, 3 anybodies.

By law here in NC there needs to be one J-man on each job site. It doesn't happen. The state has talked for years about enforcing it but they know if they do they'll put 99% of ECs out of business.

Not sure about the requirements of the plumbers here, but very few are licensed other than the owner.....just like the electrical field.

Here in Charlotte, the HVAC guys are the ones that make the money, for new installs and definately service work. The mark up on HVAC work and materials is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay above plumbers and electricians here.
 
GilbeSpark said:
Here in Charlotte, the HVAC guys are the ones that make the money, for new installs and definately service work. The mark up on HVAC work and materials is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay above plumbers and electricians here.
Now you're catching on. 90% of HVAC service is electrical anyhow. An easy leap for a good electrician to add HVAC service to his portfolio of services. The EPA test is a cinch.
 
mdshunk said:
Now you're catching on. 90% of HVAC service is electrical anyhow. An easy leap for a good electrician to add HVAC service to his portfolio of services. The EPA test is a cinch.

If you could do furnace and AC change outs and rewire them all up at the same time you could make a KILLING if you stayed even remotely busy.
 
perfect example of why there needs to be a license based on the existing laws....on another forum there is a discussion regarding taking credit cards...there are licensed contractors who are actually adding money directly to their invoice to cover the cost of processing the credit card...this is against the law just about everywhere...you can legally offer a cash discount...you can put the processing fees in your overhead...but you can't directly add money to the invoice to cover CC processing fees....

this is one example of thousands of existing laws that are violated every day out of ignorance...once you receive your technical license and go into business, there is no requirement to actually learn about this stuff...
 
emahler said:
i've been grassroots (very grassroots) lobbying for years that NJ should require 2 licenses to go into business in the trades...1 license is the current 1 - a technical license...the other should be a business license - not MBA level, but definitely Jr. College level...
I don't agree about licensing for a business. However, I do believe there should be more CEU credits available for business development, business practices, pricing up jobs, doing takeoffs, etc. NJ seems to be focussed in on continually re-developing out technical skills and lacking in helping to develop our administrative skills. The way I see it they assume that you already have the business knowledge to enter into a business venture otherwise you wouldn't have taken the leap.
480sparky said:
But you do have the proverbial 'gun to your head'. You still have bills to pay.
Never said I didn't.
If you worked for someone else, would you gladly work evenings and weekends off the clock? You'd say "No," wouldn't you?
You're right........I'd say no.
So how is working for yourself any different?
I work at my own pace and I drive myself. I don't work at a pace determined by someone else or have the drive they think I should have.
You still are working, and working for someone, it's just that someone is you.
And that's the beauty of it all.
 
We'll never catch those plumbing guys. Haven't figgured it out yet. Ever seen a news report where the cause of the fire was "plumbing"?

Their only claim to fame seems to be the falling down jeans, and that infamous butt crack.

Humm, maybe I should have let myjeans slip a little lower, could of been rich and famous by now!

Best Wishes
 
the difference!

the difference!

"What is the difference between a painter and a plumber"?.... A painter smells like "paint"!! Why are we so hung up on what the plumbers earn??? Maybe it is because they are doing something right!??? I think the electrical trade requires at least 10 times the knowledge that the plumbing trade requires! Look at what is involved in the entire field of our trade. That being said, go earn what you want to earn!!!Do plumbers "stick together"? I don't know?? Read through this post. Look at some of the "back bitting"/bashing that we do with one another! I posted a question once on pricing. My concern was "why do customers pay painters what ever they want to paint 2 little bedrooms", and squabble over whatever is priced to add an extra receptacle"?!!! Quit giving your work away like some kind of "hack"!!! This would be a great start that I think would help all of us!
 
mdshunk said:
Now you're catching on. 90% of HVAC service is electrical anyhow. An easy leap for a good electrician to add HVAC service to his portfolio of services. The EPA test is a cinch.

In MA I don't think there is any license requirement for HVAC (except for pipefitting gas where applicable). What is the EPA test?
 
epa exam

epa exam

The epa exam is a requirement that is a brief on the spot exam. You are required to have this to purchase refrigerants(freons) such as the ones that are suppose to harm the ozone when released into atmosphere. It is a pretty simple exam that is offered at a lot of hvac supply houses that stock freon.
 
Slightly off topic - How about good accounting?

Slightly off topic - How about good accounting?

goldstar said:
Probably the most profound statement/question yet.
Or you finally come to the realization that the boss is making all the $$ and doling out to you exactly what you initially agreed to work for irrespective of the fact that you are now working twice as hard and twice as long than when you first signed on while he's always thinking that you should be greatful that he's given you a job. (Sorry, didn't mean to go off but it struck a nerve.)

I don't think the issue is really about "working together" but rather about getting the amount of $$ for a job based on what the market will bear. For example, if the going rate for a 200 amp resi service upgrade is going for say $2400 in your area why would someone come along and take the job for $1600 ? Don't get me wrong, I love America and the free enterprise system and our abhility to compete but a $600 disparity on a job like this is just plain bad business. If you're in a highly competitive area and you out-bid the next guy by $100 that's one thing but leaving $600 on the table is not only bad business - it's stupidity.

I'm sure the vast majority of us have come up through the trade and have learned all those technical things that make us good mechanics. However, I believe one of the things that should be a requirement to getting an EC license in any given State is having some formal training in business development or management. Learn how to do your own accounting, learn how to perform a break-even analysis, learn how to price up and bid on a job, research what the going prices are for work in your area, etc. Many of us ended up in this trade by default because, as 220/221 pointed out, we just couldn't put up with the stupidity and BS working for someone else.

I once had a friend refer me to a GC who was interested in changing EC's. All he did was complain about what a lousey job his current EC was doing, that he seldom showed up on the job or met deadlines, etc. I'm always leary to hop on the bandwagon in situations like this because I'm only hearing one side of the story but he asked me to give him a price to wire the next house he was building. So, I did and faxed it over to him. I believe my price was $14k (all the usual things, 2 AC units, double wall oven, big kitchen, etc.). He called me the following day and said he couldn't make out the price on the estimate........."Was it $1400.00 ?" I said "No, it was $14K". His response was "Gee, my electrician has been doing these houses for $6K". I then told him to stop complaining about your electrician, hire a limo and go pick him up, take him out to dinner, drive him home and tuck him into bed !!!

One solution is (I mentioned it before) flood that contractor with crappy work and customers - anything you don't want refer him to those customers - he will be out of your way for a while and making peanuts!
What I have noticed in this forum and many others is that electricians who are good trades people are not so good as being business people.
Ex. knowing a bit of accounting or hiring an accountat is the 2nd priority when in business -otherwise it will take 3 years to notice you are working for peanuts and loosing your shirt.
I have a system (a manual system - I only took basic accounting) which takes me exactly 6 minutes anywhere, anytime ON THE ROAD to know exactly how much money I CLEARED in wages so far (for the period), how much `TOTAL` are my Accounts Payable, How much materials (purchases) I have so far for the period, how much Accounts receivables (total), ALL expenses so far etc. etc. But - no. 1 thing to do is after every transaction like a gas fill up etc. is to document it BEFORE leaving the gas staion! or when sitting back on the truck after a purchase of materials - document it right there and NOT - Oh - I will do it later. This system was developed by me and it is private - but talk to an account - they will help you before it is too late.
 
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