catching the plumbers

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emahler said:
i've been grassroots (very grassroots) lobbying for years that NJ should require 2 licenses to go into business in the trades...1 license is the current 1 - a technical license...the other should be a business license - not MBA level, but definitely Jr. College level...
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I don't agree. If you want to go into business, any business, do so at your own peril. It is not up to the government to make that decision for me. Plus...I like making $100.00 and hour. :rolleyes: :grin:
 
electricmanscott said:
I don't agree. If you want to go into business, any business, do so at your own peril. It is not up to the government to make that decision for me. Plus...I like making $100.00 and hour. :rolleyes: :grin:
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they aren't making any decisions for anyone...they are just leveling the playing field so to speak...

for that matter, do away will any licensing and go to anarchy...
 
480sparky said:
But you do have the proverbial 'gun to your head'. You still have bills to pay. If you worked for someone else, would you gladly work evenings and weekends off the clock? You'd say "No," wouldn't you? So how is working for yourself any different? You still are working, and working for someone, it's just that someone is you.
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that's my point
 
emahler said:
i've been grassroots (very grassroots) lobbying for years that NJ should require 2 licenses to go into business in the trades...1 license is the current 1 - a technical license...the other should be a business license - not MBA level, but definitely Jr. College level...
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Good luck, Why don't you see how WV did it. I am sure there are other states as well. How ever it has been my experience that most laws like CEU have no meat. anyone can just walk in an sit, but it's a start. Oh well I guess everyone needs a job.

If I was you I would be lobbying that you need an electrical license, and liability insurance to purchase items such as wire, Receptacles, Switches really anything that requires a "Qualified Electrician". Could you imagine if only ECs could purchase romex? Now add the business sense into the formula.
 
I get a kick out of these adds and things that say "be your own boss". It make take a while to realize it, but when you are the owner of a company, pretty much everybody else is your boss (whether they know it or not). (And if you don't know it then you probably aren't treating your clients right either ).
 
emahler said:
they aren't making any decisions for anyone...they are just leveling the playing field so to speak...

for that matter, do away will any licensing and go to anarchy...
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Licensing is fine, am all for that but based on the occupation and only to protect public safety.

Business courses are more for the benefit individual, that is what I was getting at.

Here in MA I do believe "business" is now part of the masters exam. That seems to be fine so long as there is not a requirement for college level business degrees before you can open a business.
 
electricmanscott said:
Licensing is fine, am all for that but based on the occupation and only to protect public safety.

Business courses are more for the benefit individual, that is what I was getting at.

Here in MA I do believe "business" is now part of the masters exam. That seems to be fine so long as there is not a requirement for college level business degrees before you can open a business.
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i'm not saying college degree required...i'm saying make a test that shows proficiency in basic accounting practices required to operate a business...if after passing the test, a contractor chooses to disregard laws of economics, well, then he's an educated idiot at least...
 
emahler said:
i'm not saying college degree required...i'm saying make a test that shows proficiency in basic accounting practices required to operate a business...if after passing the test, a contractor chooses to disregard laws of economics, well, then he's an educated idiot at least...
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Why should it be illegal for a new contractor to be dumb at business? Worst case, he'll fail. No big deal, and certainly not a state matter. I really don't need big brother dictating what he thinks I need to be successful.
 
mdshunk said:
Why should it be illegal for a new contractor to be dumb at business? Worst case, he'll fail. No big deal, and certainly not a state matter. I really don't need big brother dictating what he thinks I need to be successful.
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it's the libertarian in you...see i look at it from a different perspective...that being, "here is a way to lesson your chance of failure, while helping to keep you from screwing up the industry for the other guys"

again, it's not illegal to be dumb in business, it would just be illegal to not pass a test, then be dumb in business...

one could argue that the lack of business sense is a greater danger to public safety that a lack of technical knowledge...i'll let you tear that apart before I explain...however, here is a hint: why do most guys cut corners or not educate themselves deeper in the industry?
 
emahler said:
one could argue that the lack of business sense is a greater danger to public safety that a lack of technical knowledge...i'll let you tear that apart before I explain...however, here is a hint: why do most guys cut corners or not educate themselves deeper in the industry?
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There already exists consumer protection laws.

I would absolutely resist a law that would require me to pass a test to demonstrate that I have what it takes to comply with other laws that already exist.

I also reserve my right to be a failure, if I am so inclined.
 
mdshunk said:
There already exist consumer protection laws.

I would absolutely resist a law that would require me to pass a test to demonstrate that I have what it takes to comply with other laws that already exist.
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the ignorance from being uneducated is far worse than any consumer protection law on the books is designed for...
 
emahler said:
the ignorance from being uneducated is far worse than any consumer protection law on the books is designed for...
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Why should it be illegal to be ignorant? If ignorance causes a person to break the law by some means, then those existing laws will prevail. I fail to see how anyone would benefit from your scheme, other than existing contractors who wish to construct barriers to entry. There does exist a population of ignorant consumers who will hire ignorant contractors. They both deserve each other, and there is a market for ignorance.
 
mdshunk said:
Why should it be illegal to be ignorant? If ignorance causes a person to break the law by some means, then those existing laws will prevail. I fail to see how anyone would benefit from your scheme, other than existing contractors who wish to construct barriers to entry. There does exist a population of ignorant consumers who will hire ignorant contractors. They both deserve each other, and there is a market for ignorance.
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there will always be a market for ignorance...heck, look at lawyers...

and yes, it does have everything to do with creating barriers of entry...you and I agree in principal (at heart, i'm a libertarian as well) but the practicality of it is that ignorant contractors affect more people than just themselves...now, enforce a business license (NJ has a section on their exam now that is "Business and Law", however it's not nearly enough) and you will still have ignorant people, and ignorant unlicensed contractors...and they can be in their own bubble.

I personally don't feel the need to allow otherwise unqualified people the ability to screw up industries because it's their god given right to be ignorant.
 
emahler said:
I personally don't feel the need to allow otherwise unqualified people the ability to screw up industries because it's their god given right to be ignorant.
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I think you're giving ignorant people too much credit. The main way (and perhaps only way) they "screw up" the trades is by way of driving the price benchmark down because of their ignorance. It makes the sales calls tougher. Lacking the ignorant group, the sales would be gravy. I'd like that too, but I think it's fundamentally wrong to prohibit that group from having a go at it. There are some people who started out pretty dumb, but got smarter along the way.
 
mdshunk said:
I think you're giving ignorant people too much credit. The main way (and perhaps only way) they "screw up" the trades is by way of driving the price benchmark down because of their ignorance. It makes the sales calls tougher. Lacking the ignorant group, the sales would be gravy. I'd like that too, but I think it's fundamentally wrong to prohibit that group from having a go at it. There are some people who started out pretty dumb, but got smarter along the way.
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well, i should disclose that i firmly believe people should pass an exam before they are allowed to have kids....as well as pass an IQ test befoe they are allowed out of their house in the morning....
 
emahler said:
well, i should disclose that i firmly believe people should pass an exam before they are allowed to have kids....as well as pass an IQ test befoe they are allowed out of their house in the morning....
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I'm not sure that's the cure for anything anyhow. A barrier to entry, for sure, but no real improvement in the end. The Gaston report I linked to a few weeks ago shows that when states tightened the regulations on dentists, for instance, the incidence of tooth decay in those states actually increased.
 
mdshunk said:
I'm not sure that's the cure for anything anyhow. A barrier to entry, for sure, but no real improvement in the end. The Gaston report I linked to a few weeks ago shows that when states tightened the regulations on dentists, for instance, the incidence of tooth decay in those states actually increased.
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yeah, but restricting the entry by dolts into the contacting business will allow me to afford a better dentist:D win-win
 
Interesting back and forth there ;)

Earlier I described (some of) the various classes of EC's.

From the established small EC upward the common theme of success (beyond tech knowledge and a viable market) is business smarts. And inversely the common theme of failure is a lack of that same business smarts regardless of business size.

It seems to come back to some sort of motivation to limit the number of *unsophisticated* one truck EC's who will break out on their own...
Or to somehow get them to charge higher rates on the jobs they do.
-to keep sales prices high enough
-to afford better margins for the EC
-to earn bigger pay & bene's for more employees

This last is the important and key one BTW.
Would *you* keep your labor burden % the same if the gross were higher?

But it would take a LOT to get them to stop opening altogether.
-Would the nanny state model of requiring business education do it?
-Would the organized labor model of wages/bene's do it?

I'm not saying I have the answer just trying to break out the question.
 
How would the consumer play into this, other vendors that you owe money, or employees?

I don't think it's your right to screw up someone else's life by uneducated people but it happens. Maybe this is why big brother gets involved so much. Maybe not today Maybe not tomorrow, but some day it will come.
 
I personally don't feel the need to allow otherwise unqualified people the ability to screw up industries because it's their god given right to be ignorant.
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Some of the better businessmen I have worked with have employees that do some of the lousiest installations. Being good in one aspect does not necessarily lead quality in the other.
 
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