CEE Rebar Stub Out? I don't think so.

[iwire]

Now lets discuss the merits of the Ufer Ground

No, lets not further complicate this thread.

If you would like to discuss the merits of the Ufer Ground, start your own thread and drop a link here.

Now I am going to shout.

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WHAT THE WORDS IN THE NEC SAY!

:grin:

Still no one has answered the question.

If the stub is NEC compliant just how long can the stub be.

Simple question yet no one except Ryan has even attempted to answer that. :grin:

 

[Minuteman]

No doubt! There is a certain amount of pleasure in picking apart the literal meaning of the text in the NEC. You may as well join in on the fun. Don't be shy.

Oh believe me, I ain't shy. I just want to see what foot I stand on before I stick it into my mouth. :roll:

 

[chevyx92]

Okay all you stubber-uppers, answer Iwire's question. How far can you run the stub-up? Give me a code section to support your answer.

As far as you like. There is no limit or given distance in the NEC, so there is no article.

Because, if the stub-up is good according to code, then there is nothing to stop me from extending the stub-up with some rebar and tie-wire, for example, 200 feet to the service. Heck, I could even run the rebar up inside a wall, into a ceiling cavity, turn horizontal and run a couple hundred feet with sections of rebar tie-wired together, and then take it to the service.

Sure, why not? You are gonna attach a wire to the rebar and extend it to the panel anyway. So extending the rebar isn't an issue. Practical, not really.

What code section would stop me?

There isn't one.

 

[chevyx92]

250.62 prohibits using steel as a GEC.

Maybe. But 250.52(A)(3) allows it.

So how far can I run that stub?

18"?

24"?

30'?

As far as you like.

 

[iwire]

As far as you like.

Really?

I could keep tie wiring rebars togeteher from the stub as far as I want to the panel?

 

[chevyx92]

Really?

I could keep tie wiring rebars togeteher from the stub as far as I want to the panel?

Theres no restriction or limitation on the stub. If you truely have a CEE then having anything more than that or a piece of rebar sticking out doesn't matter, IMO.

 

[iwire]

Theres no restriction or limitation on the stub. If you truely have a CEE then having anything more than that or a piece of rebar sticking out doesn't matter, IMO.

OK, I do appreciate your answer, few people have tried to answer that one. :smile:

 

[chevyx92]

How about article 250.50. It says "If Available" on the premises at each building or structure served each item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. 250.52(A)(3) concrete encased electrode----you would never be able to do what 250.50 asks(at least on existing buildings) if you did not have a stub. IMO.

 

[iwire]

you would never be able to do what 250.50 asks(at least on existing buildings) if you did not have a stub. IMO.

A CEE is never required to be added in an existing building.

Even if you wanted to, how would you verify what you tyeing onto is in fact at least 20' of rebar?

It is my opinion that the only code compliant way to connect to CEE made of rebar is by running at least a 4 AWG into the concrete at least 2" and attaching to the rebar at that point.

 

[chevyx92]

A CEE is never required to be added in an existing building.

I agree.

Even if you wanted to, how would you verify what you tyeing onto is in fact at least 20' of rebar?.

I agree again.

It is my opinion that the only code compliant way to connect to CEE made of rebar is by running at least a 4 AWG into the concrete at least 2" and attaching to the rebar at that point.

Yes it is your opinion.

 

[tryinghard]

I guess I'm one of the kool-aid drinkers. I have already declared iwire the technical winner in post #111. Y'all better recognize.:grin:

There really is no winner; this is intelligent minds of qualified electricians deciphering two sentences of information (250.52(A)(3))!

Some may minimize this to clear information, I say its a bucket full of holes! and the best one can do with a bucket full of holes is get another bucket.

If a 10? rod driven 8? in ground retains its status as an electrode the 20? steel at or near the bottom enveloped in concrete is the electrode and any other portion of the same rod extending out of concrete to inside a wall is simply the same electrode.

In this case it?s not the 'electrode? or the ?GEC? so there is no code violation! :grin:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Please correct me if I am mistaken-- I know you will-- If rebar is exposed to the elements or even a crawl space isn't there a good chance that it will rust and the connection to the rebar via the clamp will get compromised?

 

[e57]

A CEE is never required to be added in an existing building.

Even if you wanted to, how would you verify what you tyeing onto is in fact at least 20' of rebar?

It is my opinion that the only code compliant way to connect to CEE made of rebar is by running at least a 4 AWG into the concrete at least 2" and attaching to the rebar at that point.

A while back here there was one silly inspector who did just that - and forced an EC to dig down to the bottom of the footing - chip out concrete to find a rebar to attach to - then patch it back in - this put a bunch of structural engineers into 'what the' mode and rightfully so. There have been a number of stories here of being forced to chip out concrete when the ufer is missed in a pour. Which should also put any structural engineer into 'what the' mode. When technically and anchor/sill plate bolt properly installed when the foundation was poured with a lug on the top would do the same thing IMO. But thats not what the NEC says and I am sure you were about to make that perfectly clear.... And I will make it perfectly that it does not SAY words to the effect of 'no portion of the electrode shall be exposed' in the code in question.

 

[iwire]

And I will make it perfectly that it does not SAY words to the effect of 'no portion of the electrode shall be exposed' in the code in question.

No it does not say that, I never implied it did. :smile:

It tells us a list of specific about what a CEE and outside the concrete is not included in any of it.

 

[iwire]

Please correct me if I am mistaken-- I know you will-- If rebar is exposed to the elements or even a crawl space isn't there a good chance that it will rust and the connection to the rebar via the clamp will get compromised?

I agree and I have brought that up a few times, Cavie also metioned that in FL any stub ups have to come up in a wall with access.

 

[iwire]

If a 10? rod driven 8? in ground retains its status as an electrode the 20? steel at or near the bottom enveloped in concrete is the electrode and any other portion of the same rod extending out of concrete to inside a wall is simply the same electrode.

Rods and CEE are defined differently we already covered that.

 

[tryinghard]

Please correct me if I am mistaken-- I know you will-- If rebar is exposed to the elements or even a crawl space isn't there a good chance that it will rust and the connection to the rebar via the clamp will get compromised?

Maybe, but does NEC address this?

The stubs I have seen are in walls.

I'm not a stubber because I've never installed rebar but 'others' have on many of our projects that are inspected and occupied.

 

[e57]

Please correct me if I am mistaken-- I know you will-- If rebar is exposed to the elements or even a crawl space isn't there a good chance that it will rust and the connection to the rebar via the clamp will get compromised?

But you will be able to inspect or repair it without condeming the foundation.... Even if it where a copper to copper connection it could corrode. Even if solid copper it could corrode.... There is also a very good chance that it will rust and/or rot while in the concrete - which is why in some more critical areas they have been using epoxy coated - and will more so in the future. More here I haven't dug out any old Ufer's - but I have chipped out holes in concrete and found rusted rebar....

 

[e57]

Quote:
Originally Posted by e57
And I will make it perfectly that it does not SAY words to the effect of 'no portion of the electrode shall be exposed' in the code in question.

No it does not say that, I never implied it did. :smile:

It tells us a list of specific about what a CEE and outside the concrete is not included in any of it.

Well that sums up the last 8 pages pretty good...

 

[iwire]

But you will be able to inspect or repair it without condeming the foundation.... Even if it where a copper to copper connection it could corrode. Even if solid copper it could corrode.... There is also a very good chance that it will rust and/or rot while in the concrete - which is why in some more critical areas they have been using epoxy coated - and will more so in the future. More here I haven't dug out any old Ufer's - but I have chipped out holes in concrete and found rusted rebar....

Mark, bottom line

Is the connection more likely to last longer buried in dirt or encased in a footing?

As far as inspections .... there is very little chance any one would be digging up the stub buried in dirt to inspect it even though I agree it would be possible.