CEE Rebar Stub Out? I don't think so.

[iwire]

That's strange! My 2005 NEC says you can!

So does mine.

Ditto, it also says 'at least 20' of one or more bars.'

 

[iwire]

So Bob, what if I drive a ten foot ground rod eight feet deep, then conect to the exposed portion of it? Are you saying that it is not an electrode because the electrode is only the part that is in the dirt? It seems like the same logic as your CEE argument...

IMO not the same.

250.52(3) describes a CEE as 'being encased in concrete'

250.52(4) does not describe a ground rod as being in the earth.

We don't get to the 8' earth requirement until we get to 250.53(G)

Now can I ask you, how long can the sub be and can I splice onto to it with more rebar and tie wire? :smile:

 

[tryinghard]

Ditto, it also says 'at least 20' of one or more bars.'

IMO this can mean more than one 20' bar is okay to tie as in bond, a minimum is one 20' bar.

In other words the actual electrode is 20' and it can wire tie bond to other steel of any length.

 

[tryinghard]

So does mine.

The last sentence of 250.52(A)(3) states:

"Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means."

Chris

This does not say electrode.

 

[ryan_618]

IMO not the same.

250.52(3) describes a CEE as 'being encased in concrete'

250.52(4) does not describe a ground rod as being in the earth.

We don't get to the 8' earth requirement until we get to 250.53(G)

So, in other words, a ground rod laying on the sidewalk is an electrode, because nothing in 250.52 says it has to be in the dirt? I think you must use both subsections...250.52 and 250.53 to determine what an electrode is. If I have an electrode that is permissable (an 8 foot rod) and I make it longer (a 10 foot rod) I can still connect to it in the above ground portion. If I take an electrode such as a piece of rebar that complies, I can also tie onto it wherever I would like.

Now can I ask you, how long can the sub be and can I splice onto to it with more rebar and tie wire? :smile:

No length limitation. Can I tie to it with more tie wire...yes.

 

[iwire]

tryinghard, I don't know what else to say other then IMO your mistaken.

Read it using Charlie's rules, in my opinion your reading it with a destination in mind.

 

[ryan_618]

This does not say electrode.

Is the steel bar not an electrode? That is what is being described in the rest of the subsection.

 

[ryan_618]

Sorry, re-reading my last post to Bob I realized that I typed too fast. What I am trying to get at is that simply making an electrode longer does not mean you must connect to the portion spelled out in .52 or .53.

 

[iwire]

So, in other words, a ground rod laying on the sidewalk is an electrode, because nothing in 250.52 says it has to be in the dirt?

Yes of couse it is, it's likly UL listed as an electrode.

But a rebar laying on the ground is just a rebar, it is not an electrode until it meets the defintion found in .52

think you must use both subsections...250.52 and 250.53 to determine what an electrode is.

For the intalltion of yes, but not for the defintion of.

If I have an electrode that is permissable (an 8 foot rod) and I make it longer (a 10 foot rod) I can still connect to it in the above ground portion.

I agree, all of it is a groundrod.

If I take an electrode such as a piece of rebar that complies, I can also tie onto it wherever I would like.

We will have to disagree there. :smile:

No length limitation. Can I tie to it with more tie wire...yes.

Really?

You would pass the below installtion?

Earlier Marc said:

Seems like lately the upturned rebar is at the furtherest place in the basement from my panel location, so they're paying dear for that oversight.

Could Marc grab three 20' sections of scrap rebar, some of the bailing wire, tie the three sections together and onto the stub out, run the rebar underground and over to his panel?

 

[iwire]

What I am trying to get at is that simply making an electrode longer does not mean you must connect to the portion spelled out in .52 or .53.

But a GEC must connect to 'the electrode', the part outside the pour is not the electrode.

 

[tryinghard]

Is the steel bar not an electrode? That is what is being described in the rest of the subsection.

This last sentance is devoid of the word electrode

 

[tryinghard]

tryinghard, I don't know what else to say other then IMO your mistaken.

Read it using Charlie's rules, in my opinion your reading it with a destination in mind.

I will agree that I?m in the semantics but no farther than the semantics of a #4 cu electrode protruding out of concrete suddenly losing its status and becoming something else.

How easy can this sentence read definitive regarding steel pieces? [The electrode] reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be [multiple bars] bonded together by the usual steel tie wires? 4 words added makes it completely clear, but neither sentence clarifies this simple point, it can easily be read differantly.

I think the opposite of my argument is disgusting, to allow an undefined amount of chunks of steel to wire tie in some method of becoming an acceptable 20? electrode, all this done by crafts who have zero association of what the electrode is or why they are installing it.

Notice how much dialog we have regarding grounding, now a non-electrician will install it :roll: Dumber than a bag of hammers comes to mind!

 

[iwire]

I think the opposite of my argument is disgusting, to allow an undefined amount of chunks of steel to wire tie in some method of becoming an acceptable 20? electrode, all this done by crafts who have zero association of what the electrode is or why they are installing it.

I agree, it is very surprising but that is not only how it's written it is the intent.

Check out the other thread for a panel statement I posted.

 

[e57]

But a GEC must connect to 'the electrode', the part outside the pour is not the electrode.

I know you're trying really hard not to address the point that they are one in the same - and that it is part of your arguement - but what if they are one in the same - what if....

5' of a water line is still an electrode when not buried if 10' of it is, and so would 2' of a 10' rod.

What if say you had a single 50' stick of re-bar and it were exotherically welded to the neutral bar of the main panel (2')- for the sake of conversation - then it went into the concrete floor below the panel and directly to 2" at the bottom of the pour (2') - travelled 10', then up to 5" in the pour for 5', then back down to 2" for another 10' - then did it again - up for 5', down for 10'. then stuck up and had the water clamped directly to it.... Is any portion of this single rebar an electrode?

So if all 50' were 2" from the bottom of the pour - where do you connect to it? In the middle - at the end - which end?

Like mentioned in my 'accessibilty' aurguement - if the encased connection is actually an exception - how could one ever do a CEE without using the exception?

I think this is one of those interpetations that can easily become the 'myth that became the law of the land' in a forum like this. And unless the code changes, and states it need be connected to the portion that qualifies as the 'electrode' I am going to continue as it is written in the vaguaries and unstated spaces that are allowed IMO. (And do my best to steer Inspectors clrear of Bob)

 

[iwire]

5' of a water line is still an electrode when not buried if 10' of it is,

It is because the NEC says it is.

and so would 2' of a 10' rod.

It is because both the NEC and UL says it is.

What if say you had a single 50' stick of re-bar and it were exotherically welded to the neutral bar of the main panel (2')- for the sake of conversation - then it went into the concrete floor below the panel and directly to 2" at the bottom of the pour (2') - travelled 10', then up to 5" in the pour for 5', then back down to 2" for another 10' - then did it again - up for 5', down for 10'. then stuck up and had the water clamped directly to it.... Is any portion of this single rebar an electrode?

Per the NEC the only section of your re-bar that is an electrode is the part inside at least 2" of concrete and near the bottom etc. per .52

So if all 50' were 2" from the bottom of the pour - where do you connect to it? In the middle - at the end - which end?

Anywhere the re-bar fits the description of an CEE found in 250.52

Like mentioned in my 'accessibility' argument - if the encased connection is actually an exception - how could one ever do a CEE without using the exception?

You can't.

My point here is only that the wording needs to be addressed, not how we are currently doing things. :grin:

Other then the durability issues of a stub out exposed to water I don't see a safety issue only a code issue.

(And do my best to steer Inspectors clear of Bob)

LOL :grin:

 

[cschmid]

250.52(A)(3) does not say the CEE electrode can be wire tied to equal 20'!

250.52(A)(3) does say a CEE electrode consists of at least 20'.

the stuff I have posted is right out of the 2008 code..I cut a pasted it from my 2008 code software..

 

[cschmid]

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode.
An electrode encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located horizontally near the bottom or vertically, and within that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of one or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm (1/2 in.) in diameter, or consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG. Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means. Where multiple concrete-encased electrodes are present at a building or structure, it shall be permissible to bond only one into the grounding electrode system.

Ok I follow that..But I do not follow the exposed area of thought..As the connection to the CEE is not in violation according to 250.64 (f)(1) so does that mean having the rebar exsposed makes a convient location..

250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.
(B) Securing and Protection Against Physical Damage. Where exposed, a grounding electrode conductor or its enclosure shall be securely fastened to the surface on which it is carried. A 4 AWG or larger copper or aluminum grounding electrode conductor shall be protected where exposed to physical damage. A 6 AWG grounding electrode conductor that is free from exposure to physical damage shall be permitted to be run along the surface of the building construction without metal covering or protection where it is securely fastened to the construction; otherwise, it shall be in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, electrical metallic tubing, or cable armor. Grounding electrode conductors smaller than 6 AWG shall be in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, electrical metallic tubing, or cable armor.

(F) Installation to Electrode(s). Grounding electrode conductor(s) and bonding jumpers interconnecting grounding electrodes shall be installed in accordance with (1), (2), or (3). The grounding electrode conductor shall be sized for the largest grounding electrode conductor required among all the electrodes connected to it.
(1) The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to any convenient grounding electrode available in the grounding electrode system where the other electrode(s), if any, are connected by bonding jumpers per 250.53(C).

we are assuming that the has re-bar is 2 inch's of concrete around it..when they throw the re-bar in the pour area it is thrown right on the dirt..they wheel wheel borrows over it and walk on it so I doubt it is 2 inch's in the concrete..Now on the other hand using re-bar in a elevated concrete floor of a multi level building where the re-bar is staked and fastened as to be at a defined level would be encased in 2 in of concrete..

So my question is does the re-bar in 2 inches of concrete that is elevated of the ground still qualify as CEE as the concrete is not in direct contact with the earth..And does it actually have the same grounding resistance as it would being in direct contact with the earth..

Now if 250.52 (3) states what the material has to be in the encased 2 inches..so if the material meets thous requirement I believe it is classified as an electrode and can be attached to when it protrudes out the concrete..

 

[iwire]

So my question is does the re-bar in 2 inches of concrete that is elevated of the ground still qualify as CEE as the concrete is not in direct contact with the earth..And does it actually have the same grounding resistance as it would being in direct contact with the earth...

You really lost me.

In a nut shell any part of the re-bar that is not encased in at least 2" of concrete is not IMO an NEC electrode, it is just re-bar.

So a re-bar stubbed out of the footing is just re-bar not a CEE. :smile:

 

[e57]

So a re-bar stubbed out of the footing is just re-bar not a CEE. :smile:

If that rebar is is encased for the rest of its length in 2" of concrete near the bottom of the pour for 20' it is an "accessible" place to connect to it.

250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Accessibility. The connection of a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to a grounding electrode shall be accessible.

The exception is not the law of the land IMO...

Quote:
Originally Posted by e57
5' of a water line is still an electrode when not buried if 10' of it is,


It is because the NEC says it is.

It used to say the whole water line was - it only changed due to changes in Plumbing practice...

Quote:
and so would 2' of a 10' rod.

It is because both the NEC and UL says it is.

You wouldn't mind pointing to where it says the exposed portion of the rod is still an "electrode" - is it somewhere near where it says that the exposed portion of rebar is not?

 

[e57]

Bob if you are going to refer to this sentance at the end of 250.53G to justify the exposed rod - I'm just going to point to 250.68 again - and maybe again..... :grin:

The upper end of the electrode shall be flush with or below ground level unless the aboveground end and the grounding electrode conductor attachment are protected against physical damage as specified in 250.10.