child proof recepts being required!?

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brian john said:
What about mandatory locks on cabinet doors.
Mandatory gates with combination locks on all stairways.
Outlaw swing sets.
All bicycles must have training wheels (Adults also as a child might attempt to ride these).
No schools with stairs.
Outlaw trans fats (OH SOME STATES ARE ALREADY DOING THAT).
Outlaw cigarettes BAN THEM, kids might get a hold of a puff of smoke or steal a pack.
Outlaw liquor.
Ban conversation as the children might hear DIRTY TALK.
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IMO the above has absolutely noting to do with the question at hand.

The question of the receptacles is an electrical safety issue, non-of the items above are electrical issues.

You have to put your emotions aside and look at just the question of electrical safety.


I am glad they brought this new rule into the NEC.

You know they used to play football with just leather caps on their heads, NASCAR used to run with just T-shirts with smokes rolled up in the sleeve, electrical distribution used to be done with live front gear.

I am willing to bet every time a rule came along that changed what I listed above people said it went to far....now when we look back the need for those rules become obvious.

I have to say it BLOWS ME AWAY! that Pierre of all people thinks this is a bad requirement. It truly surprises me. :-?
 
brian john said:
I am just concerned that the groups are getting more influence from the manufactures.
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Brian that concerns me very much as well.

But in this case, I think the idea is a good one.

It is a low tech, low cost, easy solution to a large number of incidents per year.

I do not think it is some sort of windfall for the manufacturers, they where already selling receptacles and very shortly completion will drive the prices down to actual costs of manufacturing with some profit.

This is different then AFCIs where the manufacturers have spent a lot on research and they will be trying to recoup that money for many years down the road.
 
The key here is "practical." Is it practical to force the installation of receptacles that are currently 100x more expensive?
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I can get TR residential grade receptacles for $1.21 each, probably less in large quanities.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I can get TR residential grade receptacles for $1.21 each, probably less in large quanities.
Don
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My issue here is not just the costs (?$5-$6 a pop around here) its the whole principal of the issue. The Nec is headed down the wrong road with this 'type' of thinking and practice of letting the manufacturer push there product under the guise of being the 'savior' of the children. This needs to stop.
 
How about this: Rather than 'protecting children', think of this as protecting people from their own stupidity.

Many people have argued against this code change on the basis that the code shouldn't protect people from stupidity.

I would instead argue that _most_ of the code is about protecting people from stupidity, their own and that of others. Human beings make mistakes, and most of code is about providing practical safety in the event of the inevitable mistakes.

Because human stupidity is unbounded, there is only so far that it is practical to protect from stupidity. But to the extent that the benefits are reasonably balanced with the costs, protection from stupidity is a totally reasonable part of the code.

-Jon
 
iwire said:
I have to say it BLOWS ME AWAY! that Pierre of all people thinks this is a bad requirement. It truly surprises me. :-?
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If I misrepresented myself, it is most likely because I am dissillusioned with the NFPA/NEC which has led me to the career I now so covet.

So Bob, it is not so much the idea that I do not like TR receptacles and weather resistant receptacles and AFCI protection, etc... being expanded. It is the principle upon which the direction of the NFPA seems to be so boldly heading.

There are many people that will be affected by the requirements that all of the "data" and "substantiations" that have been provided to show us just how "bad" the situations are that have made it necessary to change a code document that is so far reaching as the NEC is.
My question would be, why does not the NFPA and other very important organizations see it for what it is and maybe donate some time/energy/ resources into the other organizations that deal with parenting to help them spread the word to FAMILIES who need the help in training to take care of their children?
and
How about some more solid proof of the need to expand AFCIs...if they are so concerned about the safety of people and the great benefit of AFCIs, how about some resources put into how the existing homes can be brought into the "fold" for protection from arcing...we all know that those buildings are probably in much more need of AFCI protection than the new homes being built.
But no...that would cost the manufacturers and other interested organizations money...shame on me for thinking in such a manner.


Yet, in the back of (or maybe smack dab in the middle of...) my mind is the millions of existing homes where these dangers are at least as prevalent or maybe in the instance of AFCI protection could be substantially worse...that they seem to just be left out in the cold for some kind of protection. It could be a century before most of those homes are protected. What about those "innocent" people?

So Bob, until I see a change in the trend the NFPA and others have been heading, I will not in good consciousness support the changes that ugly head of capitalism has so boldly shown to us all.

If this all blows you away, then I am sorry, but it is how I feel.
Safety first, but I will still keep my principles in sight as I am for the stars.
 
lets review this for a second..we are using numbers that are 2400 incidents in a 2.95 million population..less than 1 percent of the population..I pulled the 2.95 million out of the air so if anyone knows the actually population feel free. this is the link I used..

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/factbook/us/popula.html

The numbers are actually low when looking at this in the over all big picture..so you do not need TR receptacles in commercial no indication on how many of them happened away from the home..the info is week and skewed..I guess my compliant is that the NEC is changing code requirements with out having good info..to me that is lame and the American public can easily see that..once the NEC looses credibility then we are all in trouble..I am one that is disappointed in the code making panels as they are passing regulations with poor information..Looks bad for all of us..So lets get real and use better numbers..2400 incidents out of 295,000,000 is really poor at best..So I will install them and promote them as a good thing but in all reality feel it has been shoved down my throat..Many of us feel this way as well..So in the future I hope the code making panels will us better info in making decisions..
 
cschmid said:
So I will install them and promote them as a good thing but in all reality feel it has been shoved down my throat..Many of us feel this way as well..So in the future I hope the code making panels will us better info in making decisions..
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The failure in this argument that I see is that you are only applying it to one very minor regulation. Why would you not apply this to the code in general? There are many things that this view could be applied to. Where do you draw the line??

Most importantly if you, and not you personaly, know that this is nonsense then where were you when this was being put into the code? Show them the numbers that disprove the code rules positive effect on public safety. Brig a proposal to get them out of the code. Lobby your local government to not adopt the NEC.
 
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cschmid said:
lets review this for a second..we are using numbers that are 2400 incidents in a 2.95 million population..less than 1 percent of the population..I pulled the 2.95 million out of the air so if anyone knows the actually population feel free. this is the link I used..

[..
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According to the U.S. Bureau of the Census, the resident population of the United States, projected to 01/14/08 at 14:26 GMT (EST+5) is
303,233,106


You were close, if being off by about three hundred million is considered close. :wink: :grin:
 
This thread has really started me thinking. Luckily I don't have to deal with this on a daily basis at work, but with 2 kids at home one could say I deal with it everday. A quick search found me these statisitcs for 2001.

The following are statistics from various sources about deaths and Electrocution:

* 411 people died from electrocutions in the US 2001 (US Consumer Product Safety)
* 0.63 per million people died from electrocutions in the US 2001 (US Consumer Product Safety)
* Large appliance were responsible for 19% of electrocution deaths in the US 2001 (US Consumer Product Safety)
* Installed household wiring was responsible for 11% of electrocution deaths in the US 2001 (US Consumer Product Safety)
(source: http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/e/electrocution/stats.htm#medical_stats )
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Unless things have dramatically changed in the last 6 years, I am beginning to think those critical of the current NFPA process may be on to something.
 
Help

Help

As I don't purchase these electrical devices, does anyone have a link to a picture of an "listed tamper-resistant receptacle"? As I can only invision the little plastic plug in plugs that we (I) used to see in certain dwellings. Thanks.;)
DO a PM if you will!!
 
The tamper resistant receptacles have shutters inside for the hot and grounded conductor. If you don't place equal force on each of the shutters at the same time, they won't open.
Don
 
Cool, awsome Kindof

Cool, awsome Kindof

S'mise said:
Did my whole house with them, Great invention, but Now I have to plug everything in for my wife. "I can't get this darn plug to go in!"

Here is a link for cliff but I would not get gouged by the price.
http://store.electricsurplusstore.com/product.php?xProd=1290

Any supply house has them, even Ace hardware can order them for you.
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Thank you guys. I just went to a name brand wholesale house to ask if they carried the Tamper resist recept and got two dumb looks from behind the counter, and then asked about the comb/arc fault's and the same two confused looks came from across the counter, So, I politely said, you guys ain't no smerter than I is, Thanks fer yer help. I'll be back to check wits u in a couple of months to see what may have developed. NOW, I know what a tamper resist recept looks like and how it works.A BIG Colorado Thank you.:)
 
brother said:
My issue here is not just the costs (?$5-$6 a pop around here) its the whole principal of the issue. The Nec is headed down the wrong road with this 'type' of thinking and practice of letting the manufacturer push there product under the guise of being the 'savior' of the children. This needs to stop.
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Electrical safety is the wrong road for the NEC to head?

We are not talking about a few incidents a year we are talking about 100s of incidents a year and those are only the ones that ended up with a hospital stay.
 
cschmid said:
lets review this for a second..we are using numbers that are 2400 incidents in a 2.95 million population.
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Who cares what percentage it is, it is 2400 incidents a year, thats almost 7 per day!

Also keep in mind GFCI expansion has often been driven by just one fatal incident.
 
I talked with my Supplier

I talked with my Supplier

Well I look at this way I can't change it but I can use it to my advantage. The price of the device doubles (.50 to .96) and that means my margin also increases on it. I've already told my builders that they can expect 700-1200 price increases on the models we currently do. The main cost of that will be the use of different panels (40 Space vs. a 32/40 no more half size breakers) and breakers with a projected cost of 43-52 Dollars each.

I can't change it but what ever........



Let me get my bubble wrap, fire resistant with on board idiot protection computer to tell me everytime i might hurt myself suit on. Its already beeping at me. (I'm Breathing)
 
I still cant believe people have a problem with a new code that promotes safety, the entire NEC is based upon safety, I can't for the life of me figure out why nobody is crying about the new GFI requirements, yet TR's are the worst thing to ever happen... :-?
 
Stickboy, it's not about "safety period" as in, if something proves safer then it is adopted. Like it or not, there's a cost benefit, even on human life. Surely, someone once died because they couldn't see the slots on a dark brown or black receptacle, and used their fingers to guide the prongs in. Have they banned dark receptacles? No.
 
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