City water network creates parallel neutrals (parallel conductors)

[EMFExplorer]

I'll be selling tin foil hats for $5 each plus shipping. That should take care of the problem...

-Hal

Why do you suppose utilities settle these lawsuits outside of court for millions of dollars per lawsuit? If it's such a crazy conspiracy theory, why don't they want them going to trial? I've been on the dairy farms where ground current is making animals sick - very sick - and causing severe health problems to farmers and their families as well. Some of it is onsite and some of it is offsite ground current. It's not a joking matter. Laugh if you want, but it kills people and causes cancer and many other health issues. Numerous well-programmed studies have shown that as little as 18 microamps of current applied to the body causes cancer. It also depends on what frequencies are there, but the bottom line is current belongs in electrical cables not outside of them.

Balancing the current in the cables also reduces electromagnetic fields, which are a 2B agent on the WHO's IARC cancer agents lists - the same as lead, DDT, and engine exhaust. A lot of amazing researchers and published scientists, medical doctors, engineers, and other professionals have been pushing for better (lower) public exposure standards for these things. Wake up.

@mtnelect I hadn't seen your thread(s) yet. I will read them. Your knowledge is probably greater than mine. I don't claim to understand as much about voltage regulation and lightning. I know there are solutions that could improve the parallel current paths issue as well as be totally acceptable for other needs, too. It will cost money, but it represents an important improvement in how we can be safe and healthy with electrical distribution. From my work under and learning from Dave Stetzer, I know that neutrals must be oversized to accommodate our non-linear loads. Bigger neutrals, or running a second neutral in a 5-wire system, and better neutral connections everywhere lower the impedance of the neutral thereby greatly lowering the current taking the earth.
Of course these pipe paths are amazing low-impedance paths, so they need to be electrically insulated with pex/etc.
But we should head in the right direction and limit the damage and death caused by electrical current taking paths other than their intended conductors. We do this inside buildings - code requires it - so we should do it outside as well.

 

[mtnelect]

This might help to explain magnetic fields.

 

[jaggedben]

Why do you suppose utilities settle these lawsuits outside of court for millions of dollars per lawsuit? ...

Can you cite a few of these?

 

[zbang]

Oh, no; this stuff again.

 

[EMFExplorer]

Can you cite a few of these?

Minn. farmers suing utilities over 'stray voltage'

The farmers say stray voltage from damaged lines is killing their herds and hurting business.

www.utilitydive.com

Minnesota farm awarded record $6.3M in ‘stray voltage’ lawsuit

WALKER, Minn. — Crow Wing Power of Brainerd was negligent in its response to a northern Minnesota farm family’s concerns about stray voltage on their property, a Cass County jury ruled …

www.twincities.com

Pine River Dairy Farmers Win Appeal Against Crow Wing Power Company

A dairy farm in Pine River will be able to reopen after a court ruled in its favor Tuesday. A Minnesota Court of Appeals upheld a Cass County ruling declaring that Crow Wing Power & Light Company acted in negligence for years, causing Randy and Peggy Norman to lose their dairy farm.

www.cbsnews.com

Wisconsin farmer wins stray voltage case against Xcel Energy

Five-year legal battle over stray voltage ends in win for Wisconsin farmer.

www.wisfarmer.com

Former dairy farm owners suing over stray voltage

Former owners of a Junction City farm are suing a power company over stray voltage.

www.stevenspointjournal.com

Cows are easy to prove damage from contact current. The reason for this is each animal is tracked individually for milk output. Health problems are tracked as well. A farmer can setup a scopemeter and record current on the floor of their buildings - on the concrete - 6 feet apart for example similar to the leg span front to back of a dairy cow. Nasty distorted 60-hertz sinewaves are constant. Big spikes come through. The more spikes and less milk and more health problems. Guess who generates a 60 cycle wave? It's the power company's pollution on their property causing damage to their business. Slam dunk. Bring in the "forensic accountants" and you can calculate the business losses over time. Get in front of a jury and show them the pictures of deformed baby cows, still births, awful sores, and dead cows everyone. Not a good look for the power company.

Guess what - AC electrical current flowing through the body is a very unhealthy thing. While a large amount can stop your heart, a tiny amount over time can cause a ton of other problems.

 

[hbiss]

Oh no. Don't give us that. The effects of stray current and diary farms is well documented and not disputed. What I detest is the fear mongering by you people that stray voltages and EMF's are everywhere and will cause everything from cancer to death. And don't quote any studies- we all know by now how those things are manipulated to show what somebody wants.

-Hal

 

[electrofelon]

The utility primary neutral conductor to a transformer and the secondary neutral conductor are physically connected to each other at the transformers. Often with single phase line to neutral transformers, the utility will use a single conductor as both the primary and secondary netural.

Yes but their neutrals are bonded, except in the rare cases of isolation transformers. This allows primary neutral current to flow into homes and out water pipes/ground rods, cable TV lines, etc, as well as secondary current. There's current flowing everywhere since we are providing countless parallel paths.

Guys, just remember there are different distribution systems and not all are MGN's. Come to upstate NY and most of the distribution is ungrounded delta.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Stray voltage from the utility using MGN systems is easy to solve for farms by the installation of a neutral isolator, something most utilities will do for dairy farms and other livestock farms on request.
However many of the dairy issues have been from incorrect wiring practices on the load side of the service point and the neutral isolator will not fix that.

 

[gene6]

When I was an apprentice we worked on a executives house who had a very ill daughter.
If they were not home she would get better for a while. They moved to an apartment and she got better so they started investigation their house.
They had gotten someone to hunt ghost EMF or whatever.
That fella opened up walls and found black mold and dryrot from a leaking condensate pump line.
They ended up gutting the house.
Funny thing is they still had us put in a 240:120V transformer in the basement, that fed a 60A 120V subpanel on the 2nd floor and rewired the bedrooms in MC cable.
Have not thought about that job in a long time it was one of the first transfromers I did.

 

[wwhitney]

Stray voltage from the utility using MGN systems is easy to solve for farms by the installation of a neutral isolator, something most utilities will do for dairy farms and other livestock farms on request.

I'm not sure I follow how this would solve the issue.

With MGN, the primary neutral is earthed along the distribution line. So to the extent that the primary neutral is carrying a net current, it has a voltage drop along its length, and the multi-point earthing imposes a voltage gradient in the earth. This is all true for a primary wye system with only ungrounded delta secondaries.

So is it this earth voltage gradient that livestock experience as a step potential between two legs?

Now if instead of an ungrounded delta secondary you have a grounded wye secondary, with the secondary neutral solidly connected to the primary neutral, the customer's Grounding Electrode System will be an additional earthing of the primary neutral, and so that earthing will change the pattern of earth voltage gradient imposed by the primary system. If there would otherwise be a voltage difference between earth near the customer's GES and the primary neutral at the transformer, the secondary neutral will now be carrying some current from that voltage difference.

The Ronk Blocker can block that current on the secondary neutral. But I don't see how that would change the step potential on the property other than in the immediate vicinity of the customer GES.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[rambojoe]

Whatever happened to the free radical craze?
For a very short period of time i had a tin foil hat roomate who made me cover every electric device in the house when not in use.
Tv, coffe maker, stereos- everything.
And just unplugging things was un exceptable...he also was anti flouride so no water- just soda.
Are emf's and free radicals the same?

 

[electrofelon]

Are emf's and free radicals the same?

They can be whatever you want them to be and cause whatever ailment you want!

 

[Todd0x1]

BTW, instead of changing the NEC why not make it mandatory for plumbing codes to install a dielectric connection to the house. Even if the NEC removed the requirement to use the metallic water piping as part of the GES it would still be connected due to inside bonding be it purposely or accidental.

That would create a hazardous situation with a substantial potential difference across the dielectric fitting in the event of an open neutral condition. I remember reading about a plumber getting shocked or electrocuted when there was a house with an open neutral and current flowing on the water line, he removed a section of pipe or a valve or pressure regulator opening the circuit and ended up with one pipe at 120v and the other pipe at 0v (until he became the path for that current)

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I'm not sure I follow how this would solve the issue.

With MGN, the primary neutral is earthed along the distribution line. So to the extent that the primary neutral is carrying a net current, it has a voltage drop along its length, and the multi-point earthing imposes a voltage gradient in the earth. This is all true for a primary wye system with only ungrounded delta secondaries.

So is it this earth voltage gradient that livestock experience as a step potential between two legs?

Now if instead of an ungrounded delta secondary you have a grounded wye secondary, with the secondary neutral solidly connected to the primary neutral, the customer's Grounding Electrode System will be an additional earthing of the primary neutral, and so that earthing will change the pattern of earth voltage gradient imposed by the primary system. If there would otherwise be a voltage difference between earth near the customer's GES and the primary neutral at the transformer, the secondary neutral will now be carrying some current from that voltage difference.

The Ronk Blocker can block that current on the secondary neutral. But I don't see how that would change the step potential on the property other than in the immediate vicinity of the customer GES.

Cheers, Wayne

Typically it is the NEV voltage on all conductive items connected to the electrical grounding and bonding system. The voltage is between the bonded parts and the neutral. The neutral blocker opens the primary to secondary connection so the NEV does not show up on the bonded parts of the electrical system.

I don't think an actual earth gradient is a very common issue.

 

[jaggedben]

...
Guess what - AC electrical current flowing through the body is a very unhealthy thing. While a large amount can stop your heart, a tiny amount over time can cause a ton of other problems.

Thanks for the article links. However they are all very untechnical. I have no idea from reading those articles if the issues resulted from a flaw in the design of the utility networks or negligence in their upkeep. They certainly do not provide evidence for all of your claims.

 

[macmikeman]

The big question is: How many fires are prevented every year by having a copper water supply across a grid of many structures?
There is a perfect example of this and that is called Honolulu, Hawaii. You cannot get service from our power company unless you have a connection to a copper water pipe and then inspection demanda all the usual requirments for that pipe based on section 250 of the NEC.

By having this grid of "parallel path " for the service neutral conductor" any time an overhead neutral service drop corrodes away , that dwelling can rely (not safely however) on its backup return on the water pipes via the close by neighbor's service drops via their neutral bond connection at the service disconnect. Without this system I feel there would be quite a few more structural fires than the present situation , but once every 5 years or so there is an incidedent of electrical shock for plumbers who open the pipe without any jumper .

 

[wwhitney]

Typically it is the NEV voltage on all conductive items connected to the electrical grounding and bonding system. The voltage is between the bonded parts and the neutral. The neutral blocker opens the primary to secondary connection so the NEV does not show up on the bonded parts of the electrical system.

OK, but take the simplest case of a single service disconnect, where the EGC system (including bonded parts), the GEC from the GES, and the service neutral come together in a single point, with no other connections elsewhere. And suppose the GES is spatially compact so all the earth connection(s) are at the same potential.

Then if the primary neutral is at an elevated potential from the earth at the GES, you certainly will have current flowing from the GES along the GEC and the service neutral to that primary neutral. But the EGC system and the GES (earth) are separated only by that GEC, and they will have a voltage difference only equal to the voltage drop from that current on the GEC. E.g. if the primary neutral is say 6V above GES/earth, and the service neutral is 90' while the GEC is 10' of the same conductor type and size as the service neutral, the EGC to earth/GES voltage will be 6V * 10'/100' = 0.6V.

So how sensitive are livestock to small voltage differences like that? What's the acceptable threshold?

Of course, the voltage divider of GEC/service neutral may be more balanced than my example. And much more complicated topologies are likely to be common, e.g. where multiple points along the EGC system are in fact earthed, putting current from a primary neutral elevated above earth on the EGC system itself.

I don't think an actual earth gradient is a very common issue.

Seems like if there's a potential difference between two earthed points (two different points on the MGN, when the primary neutral is carrying current), there must be a voltage gradient through the earth. But maybe where those points are far apart, the voltage gradient at the surface of the earth is negligible, other than in the vicinity of the earth electrodes?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

E.g. if the primary neutral is say 6V above GES/earth, and the service neutral is 90' while the GEC is 10' of the same conductor type and size as the service neutral, the EGC to earth/GES voltage will be 6V * 10'/100' = 0.6V.

This model has no resistance at the earth electrode itself. For the opposite extreme, where the earth electrode resistance is high compared to the GEC + service neutral resistance, the EGC system all gets elevated to the same voltage as the primary neutral, or 6V in the example. Which is obviously an order of magnitude worse.

So is reality closer to this case?

Thanks,
Wayne

 

[don_resqcapt19]

OK, but take the simplest case of a single service disconnect, where the EGC system (including bonded parts), the GEC from the GES, and the service neutral come together in a single point, with no other connections elsewhere. And suppose the GES is spatially compact so all the earth connection(s) are at the same potential.

Then if the primary neutral is at an elevated potential from the earth at the GES, you certainly will have current flowing from the GES along the GEC and the service neutral to that primary neutral. But the EGC system and the GES (earth) are separated only by that GEC, and they will have a voltage difference only equal to the voltage drop from that current on the GEC. E.g. if the primary neutral is say 6V above GES/earth, and the service neutral is 90' while the GEC is 10' of the same conductor type and size as the service neutral, the EGC to earth/GES voltage will be 6V * 10'/100' = 0.6V.

So how sensitive are livestock to small voltage differences like that? What's the acceptable threshold?

Of course, the voltage divider of GEC/service neutral may be more balanced than my example. And much more complicated topologies are likely to be common, e.g. where multiple points along the EGC system are in fact earthed, putting current from a primary neutral elevated above earth on the EGC system itself.


Seems like if there's a potential difference between two earthed points (two different points on the MGN, when the primary neutral is carrying current), there must be a voltage gradient through the earth. But maybe where those points are far apart, the voltage gradient at the surface of the earth is negligible, other than in the vicinity of the earth electrodes?

Cheers, Wayne

I have just not seen any case studies suggesting that the issue is just step potential across the earth. Everything I have seen is simply contact between something connected to the electrical system bonding and grounding system and the earth.

 

[zbang]

And the vast majority of the exposed earth is not part of a dairy farm, pool deck, or the like.