Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
- Thread starter bphgravity
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physis
Senior Member
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I apologize for digressing.
In my opinion advertising people all over the country have gone mad, maybe their targets have too. I think they are actually trying to equate their product to a drug. Either that or they don't pay any attention to what their ads say, yeah right.
I apologize for digressing.
The AM radio here tells us how intelligent we are because we listen to them instead of music. They have intelligence jockey endorsements for McDonalds that tell us about getting our McDonalds "fix".
In my opinion advertising people all over the country have gone mad, maybe their targets have too. I think they are actually trying to equate their product to a drug. Either that or they don't pay any attention to what their ads say, yeah right.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Well, we approved the final yesterday at the book store. My supervisor and the deputy building official made the final call to not require GFCI protection for all receptacle outlets in the Cafe area.
I don't completely agree. The use of equipment and the nature of operation is exactly that of a commercial kitchen. There just doesn't sem to be any consistency on this issue at this time.
Only a few weeks ago, another inspector failed an office suite because the "break" room did not have gfci protected outlets at the couter space. The builder objected but ultimately installed gfci breakers for the circuits.
In my mind, if an area has appliances and equipment for the storage of foods, sinks for the cleaning of foods and utensils, and appliances for the cooking and preparation of foods, then those appliances and equipment should have gfci protection.
I don't really see that being the case in the office, but that is exactly the intented purpose of the cafe. I am hoping some fruitfull proposals arte submitted for the 2008 code cycle.
Well, we approved the final yesterday at the book store. My supervisor and the deputy building official made the final call to not require GFCI protection for all receptacle outlets in the Cafe area.
I don't completely agree. The use of equipment and the nature of operation is exactly that of a commercial kitchen. There just doesn't sem to be any consistency on this issue at this time.
Only a few weeks ago, another inspector failed an office suite because the "break" room did not have gfci protected outlets at the couter space. The builder objected but ultimately installed gfci breakers for the circuits.
In my mind, if an area has appliances and equipment for the storage of foods, sinks for the cleaning of foods and utensils, and appliances for the cooking and preparation of foods, then those appliances and equipment should have gfci protection.
I don't really see that being the case in the office, but that is exactly the intented purpose of the cafe. I am hoping some fruitfull proposals arte submitted for the 2008 code cycle.
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Confusion at least,at its best Bryan..Thanx in the returning to thread in interjection of the final outcome, and also in completion of your personal thoughts of intallation Inspector..
I for one, had been mildly curious in this "final judgement call" that your jurisdiction would render in this subject sir..
Noted: But personally.. *In my thoughts, has otherwised remained -( unchanged )-in subject matter, regarding this thread..
[ June 01, 2005, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
Confusion at least,at its best Bryan..Thanx in the returning to thread in interjection of the final outcome, and also in completion of your personal thoughts of intallation Inspector..
I for one, had been mildly curious in this "final judgement call" that your jurisdiction would render in this subject sir..
Noted: But personally.. *In my thoughts, has otherwised remained -( unchanged )-in subject matter, regarding this thread..
[ June 01, 2005, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I am also glad that you came back with the final. I would have voted "kitchen".
to digress to Ryan's "12 angry men"; now that would be a retrial at least. The jurors are supposed to be non-prejudiced at the onset of a trial, not looking to hang someone.
paul
I am also glad that you came back with the final. I would have voted "kitchen".
to digress to Ryan's "12 angry men"; now that would be a retrial at least. The jurors are supposed to be non-prejudiced at the onset of a trial, not looking to hang someone.
paul
physis
Senior Member
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I haven't contributed an opinion yet, so here's mine.
First, I'm amazed how varied interpretations can be. If I were on a CMP I wouldn't have guessed it would seem so vague.
There are three terms I see as a problem to interpretation.
Area. Is that a room or a an acre of land?
Cooking. I don't know. I'd say using an appliance to make edible stuff hotter on purpose.
Permanent. Bolted down is clear enough. But we're left to argue about whether something is going to be left somewhere.
I'm going to say that this is not a kitchen. The basin is in a seperate room. A toaster that probably isn't bolted down.
By strict interpretation I can't imagine it being a kitchen.
As far as the over all purpose, I would consider it a kitchen.
But we use strict interpretation to apply code. Unless it's vague and possibly unenforceable.
[ June 01, 2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
I haven't contributed an opinion yet, so here's mine.
First, I'm amazed how varied interpretations can be. If I were on a CMP I wouldn't have guessed it would seem so vague.
There are three terms I see as a problem to interpretation.
Area. Is that a room or a an acre of land?
Cooking. I don't know. I'd say using an appliance to make edible stuff hotter on purpose.
Permanent. Bolted down is clear enough. But we're left to argue about whether something is going to be left somewhere.
I'm going to say that this is not a kitchen. The basin is in a seperate room. A toaster that probably isn't bolted down.
By strict interpretation I can't imagine it being a kitchen.
As far as the over all purpose, I would consider it a kitchen.
But we use strict interpretation to apply code. Unless it's vague and possibly unenforceable.
[ June 01, 2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Physis:
I think "food preperation" is just as vague. But if "cooking" is considered one type of "food preperation", I guess it doesn't matter.
I like your definition of cooking.
For a permanent appliance, I think I would add that anything over a certain weight - say 50 lbs - is permemant. Thus, a stove/oven would usually be permanent. So would McDonalds' stuff.
Steve
Physis:
I think "food preperation" is just as vague. But if "cooking" is considered one type of "food preperation", I guess it doesn't matter.
I like your definition of cooking.
For a permanent appliance, I think I would add that anything over a certain weight - say 50 lbs - is permemant. Thus, a stove/oven would usually be permanent. So would McDonalds' stuff.
Steve
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
it would be interesting for those of you who want to argue this to the syllable, to imagine a kitchen that comprises two rooms. it seems that the use of "kitchen" terminolgy, by some, limits all kitchens to one room. how do you justify that limitation as the definition in the NEC is "area"?
paul
it would be interesting for those of you who want to argue this to the syllable, to imagine a kitchen that comprises two rooms. it seems that the use of "kitchen" terminolgy, by some, limits all kitchens to one room. how do you justify that limitation as the definition in the NEC is "area"?
paul
physis
Senior Member
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I'm just posing the question:
What in tarnation is an area?
Then I called it vague.
And if you want to understand the NEC you have to decide what it means. You could say that's "arguing to the syllable" and I don't even disagree. But what's a better method? Edited in: That's how they write it.
Edit: If a basin in another room is in the same area then is a basin in the same building in the same area? Do I need to continue until the requirement doesn't need to include a basin because there is one somewhere in the world?
Vague!
[ June 02, 2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
I'm just posing the question:
What in tarnation is an area?
Then I called it vague.
And if you want to understand the NEC you have to decide what it means. You could say that's "arguing to the syllable" and I don't even disagree. But what's a better method? Edited in: That's how they write it.
Edit: If a basin in another room is in the same area then is a basin in the same building in the same area? Do I need to continue until the requirement doesn't need to include a basin because there is one somewhere in the world?
Vague!
[ June 02, 2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I can help!
Much clearer now.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
We are talking about a commercial kitchen so back to McDonald's.
If the requirement was to use the word 'room' you could then say that the outlets out in the dinning area would need to be GFCI.
IMO the Kitchen area and Dinning area of a McDonald's are two areas of one room.
There is only a counter with a walk through separating the areas.
Of course that counter gives a clear indication of where the areas start and stop.
[ June 02, 2005, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
We are talking about a commercial kitchen so back to McDonald's.
If the requirement was to use the word 'room' you could then say that the outlets out in the dinning area would need to be GFCI.
IMO the Kitchen area and Dinning area of a McDonald's are two areas of one room.
There is only a counter with a walk through separating the areas.
Of course that counter gives a clear indication of where the areas start and stop.
[ June 02, 2005, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Originally posted by physis:
Thanks Bob.
The funny thing is I did not make up that definition of Area
What kind of definition is that?
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
But thats good as now we will not need AFCIs.
Yes it is all bathroom area except where it is kitchen area and laundry area.Originally posted by physis:
Is the whole building a bathroom?
But thats good as now we will not need AFCIs.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I like this answer, if I can quit laughing long enough to type thisOriginally posted by iwire:
Yes it is all bathroom area except where it is kitchen area and laundry area.Originally posted by physis:
Is the whole building a bathroom?
But thats good as now we will not need AFCIs.
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