Column wall space?

[charlie b]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by physis:My 210.52(A)(2) doesn't say the same thing as yours Charlie.

Yes it does. Read my post again. I did not quote from my copy, but rather made a comment on what the code does not say. To that I'll add that the code need not say that you only count wall space if you are looking at a wall.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

I see. You're right, I kind a missed that you're paraphrasing.

And you're also right that "what a wall is" is central to the question.

That's why I like the idea of a much bigger article 100. It's pretty common that when things start to get fuzzy there's a missing definition involved.

 

[milwaukeesteve]

Re: Column wall space?

I have noticed this also in basements.
If the remodeler decides to box in the support pole in the center of the room, that is considered wall space. And if it is bigger than 6" on a side, then you have more than 2' of wall space.
The hard part with that is that nobody wants the pole in the first place, then put an outlet in it, customers just don't understand. Until the put the end table next to it and plug their lamp in.

On the decorative columns, it is a tough call. Is it wall space? Maybe. Is it decorative, and designed just for such? yes. Is it someplace that they are going to put and end table to, or plug their vacuum cleaner into? probably not.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

I don't mind leaving it to an AHJ to make the call. Except that these people are too often not rational. So I guess I actually do mind leaving it to the AHJ to call.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by milwaukeesteve: I have noticed this also in basements.
If the remodeler decides to box in the support pole in the center of the room, that is considered wall space.

I would not agree that this is "wall space," for the same reasons I gave above. But I agree that it would be a good idea (though not a code requirement) to put a receptacle here, for the same reason you gave.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by curt swartz:
What if these columns separate the living room from the dining room?

I know you know, but I'm compelled to spell it out for the cheap seats.

If the receptacle is on the dining room side of the column, then it would need to be on an SA circuit.

If it's on the living room side, it can't be on an SA circuit.

Regardless, the column could only conceivably be required to have one receptacle on it, so flip a quarter.

IMO: Not a wall space.

 

[iwire]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by charlie b:
There is no way I would call a column a "wall," for the purposes of the NEC or for the purposes of an architectural description, despite all the (generally reasonable) reasons given so far.

I agree 210.52 is talking about walls, however IMO 210.52(A)(2) throws the 'normal' description of wall out the window.

210.52(A)(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:

(1)Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings

IMO the words 'Any space' remove the standard definition and limitation of the word 'wall'.

Just being the devils advocate here, I really don't care and besides Charlie was already nice enough to agree with me in part.

Bob

[ August 16, 2005, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

Me too. I also interpret it the same as you do.

And why don't I just go to bed?

It's bad enough that you get up the day before yesterday.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

If the receptacle is on the dining room side of the column, then it would need to be on an SA circuit.

If it's on the living room side, it can't be on an SA circuit.

Reading this I just realised that CMP 2 could have a ball with circular wall spaces like this.

 

[macmikeman]

Re: Column wall space?

Gee , I go to work all day and then come home to this mess. Ok If we have to have a receptacle outlet behind a freestanding range thats 30" wide to meet code according to strict code interpretation as posted here at this website by one of the most knowledgeable moderators, then to be fair we ought to get a receptacle on your column also. Now what are we going to do with those living rooms with one step split levels? Do we get receptacles in the risers every 12 ft horizontal? If its only 12" high is it a step or a wall ?

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Column wall space?

To throw some kindling in the fire if that step IE: landing entered another room you would need another switch for lighting

 

[charlie b]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by iwire:IMO the words 'Any space' remove the standard definition and limitation of the word 'wall'.

You are obviously mis-reading the article.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by iwire:
[QB]

Originally posted by charlie b:

210.52(A)(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:

(1)Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings

Well, if one can walk past the column, that could render the walking space similar to a doorway. Isn't a series of columns also a series of doorways?

[ August 16, 2005, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: LarryFine ]

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Column wall space?

This is just plain ridiculous. Why can common sense never seem to enter the equation? Oh yeah it is the NEC.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

I can help you out here Bob. I'll mess it all up for you.

Charlie, Why are you adding verbiage to the code?

210.52(A)(2)(1)Any space 600 mm (2ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings

I know that you're trying to indicate your perspective on it but if it needs help to say something in a certain way, then maybe it doesn't say that.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by physis:Charlie, Why are you adding verbiage to the code?

Please refer back to "Charlie's Rule of Technical Reading." I am not adding verbiage to the code, but rather, for the purposes of conversation, am inserting some words to help explain what the code says. "It says what it says," and I am trying to explain what it says.

Actually, I am reading that article with even greater care than some of the other esteemed members of this Forum. Here is what I am reading:

210.52(A)(2) Wall Space

I stop reading there. The component under discussion is a column. It is not a wall. I do not need to read about wall space, when I am looking at a column. So I don't have to read what walls need receptacles, and what walls don't. I don't need to learn that a wall that is 24 inches wide, including the width that goes around a corner, needs a receptacle. "Wall space" is part of a wall. 210.52(A)(2) does not apply, if you are not looking at a wall.

My basic point is that 210.52(A)(2)(1) is NOT providing the definition of a wall. If the NEC as a whole needed a special definition of "wall," it would have been in article 100. If article 210 in specific needed a special definition of "wall," it would have been in 210.2. Instead, what 210.52(A)(2)(1) is doing is telling us how wide a wall has to be, before it needs a receptacle. But it only applies to walls.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

I stop reading there. The component under discussion is a column. It is not a wall. I do not need to read about wall space, when I am looking at a column. So I don't have to read what walls need receptacles, and what walls don't. I don't need to learn that a wall that is 24 inches wide, including the width that goes around a corner, needs a receptacle. "Wall space" is part of a wall. 210.52(A)(2) does not apply, if you are not looking at a wall.

I would agree with what you've said entirely, except that the NEC specifically calls our attention to what "it" says is a wall.

210.52(A)(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:

My basic point is that 210.52(A)(2)(1) is NOT providing the definition of a wall.

I tend to agree with you there, but CMP 2 I think would disagree.

If the NEC as a whole needed a special definition of "wall," it would have been in article 100.

I wish that were true. But I don't believe that it is.

If article 210 in specific needed a special definition of "wall," it would have been in 210.2.

Again, that would be nice, but that's not what they did.

Instead, what 210.52(A)(2)(1) is doing is telling us how wide a wall has to be, before it needs a receptacle. But it only applies to walls.

210.52(A)(2) tells what 210.52(A)(2)(1) is telling us.

 

[iwire]

Re: Column wall space?

Charlie I agree with all that Sam has posted right above this post.

The NEC can do whatever they want.

They could say grounded conductors must be white.

Then they could say "For the purposes of this section blue wires will be treated as if they where white."

I thought you where just pulling my leg when you responded to my post, IMO it is clear the normal wall space definition is not in use for this section.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

Of course you realize Bob that this doesn't necessarily mean that I'm gonna be your friend or anything.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Column wall space?

Sorry Bob and Sam. I am not sold. In particular, I disagree with this statement by Sam:

. . . except that the NEC specifically calls our attention to what "it" says is a wall.

It is not!