Column wall space?

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

And I thought we were all going to be friends.

Well, alright, as long as I don't have to agree with anybody.

As for wall or wall space, you're right in that I shouldn't have omitted the word "space" but if you insert it in the appropriate spots then the arguement still holds because 210.52 is only concerned with "wall spaces" and I don't think we were ever talking about walls and wall spaces as different ideas.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by physis: . . . you're right

OK. I understand that part. I guess I can quit reading now.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

I tried to find a similar sound bite from your posts but I guess you're too careful. I couldn't find anything I could use.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Column wall space?

Charlie
After giving your post some thought I must agree. I shall explain why.

Article 210, section 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets, first sub section (A) General Provisions, second sub section (2) Wall Space and third sub section which is not named (1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width

Using the Manual of Style the only thing that the 2 ft could be referring to would be wall space and not column space.

Good call Charlie and I am in total agreement.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

I'm just curious how you used the style manual to reach your conclusion.

 

[OneWay]

Re: Column wall space?

Install a duplex receptacle on the side that is between the areas, opposed to one side or the other.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by OneWay:
Install a duplex receptacle on the side that is between the areas, opposed to one side or the other.

In the "doorway?" Gasp!

 

[steve66]

Re: Column wall space?

I know its dangerous to disagree with Charlie (especially when everyone else is agreeing with him) but...

If you are not looking at a wall, then you are not looking at "wall space,"

I don't see anything that says a "wall space" has to include a wall. In fact, the 2002 code says it includes "fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings."

But I am inclined to think this doesn't include a column.

Steve

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by physis:
I'm just curious how you used the style manual to reach your conclusion.

In using the Manual of Style we are told that a section can be broke down into subsections. This 2 foot rule found in 210.52 (A)(2)(1) would follow (in reverse order) 210.52 (A)(2)(1) 2 foot or more in width then to 210.52 (A)(2) which is (2) Wall Space

Looking at it from the view of the Manual of style then the Receptacle Outlets
In a Dwelling Unit (210.52) would follow the General Provisions (210.52(A)) of placement on the Wall Space (210.52 (A) (2)) of a space of 2 foot (210.52 (A)(2)(1)) or more.

This is to say that the two foot rule falls under the wall space sub section and is bound to the wall space rule ONLY. It does not include a column.

Thanks to Charlie I now have another trick question and an explanation for the answer.
This would walk hand in hand with this thread.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

Edit: I might as well stress the use of the term "any space" in 210.52(A)(2)(1) whilst I'm at it.

[ August 17, 2005, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[benaround]

Re: Column wall space?

So, turn that 90deg corner and start boxing the ceiling."it is what it is"

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Column wall space?

I tried that argument that it`s a column and not a wall.The inspector walked up to the column 1 of 4 and it was in a corner of the dining room that was open on both sides, measured more than 2 ft. I go,I go it`s off to add a receptacle I go.
This reminds me of the thread awhile back about a 2 ft wall at the entrance to a kitchen.4 gang switch above, wall backs up to fridge then counter top.So again I goI go...........

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Column wall space?

Sam
The ?any space? in 210.52 (A)(2)(1) is controlled by the ?wall space? in sub section (2).
In other words the ?any space? is any ?wall space? due to the fact that part (1) follows part (2).
Or another way to say this is (2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following: (1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width
This ?any space? has to be ?wall space? because what is pointed out in (2)

This stuff is easy as long as we don?t try to add our own thoughts into it or make something more than it is.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

No JW.

It's "wall space shall include".

Not "wall space shall include, blah blah, provided it's also wall space by additional unspecified definitions."

This stuff is easy as long as we don?t try to add our own thoughts into it or make something more than it is.

The fact is JW, I don't care what it says. I'm just reading it.

Edit: I changed my mind about something.

Edit again: Anyway JW, just to clarify, what is your answer to the question I posed in the graphic?

[ August 17, 2005, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Column wall space?

Sam
Don?t make it hard. Try reading it all as one sentence.

(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings
(2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels
(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

As used in this section, a wall space shall include any space 2 ft or more in width
As used in this section, a wall space shall include the space occupied by fixed panels
As used in this section, a wall space shall include the space afforded by fixed room dividers

The two words ?any space? has to be wall space due to the fact that (1) follows under (2).
These two words can not refer to any other part of a building except for a wall.

2.1.5 Subdividing Sections. Sections shall be permitted to be subdivided for clarity, with each subdivision representing either a rule or a part of a rule. Up to three levels of subdivisions shall be permitted, and any level shall be permitted to contain a list.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

2.1.5 is a subsection of :

2.1 Subdivision of the NEC. The National Electrical Code shall be organized as follows.

Are you implying that 210.52 and it's subsections aren't organized as oulined in the style manual.

There is nothing in the 2003 NEC Style Manual that would suggest 210.52(A)(2) be read in any way other than how it is written.

I'll ask you again. Do you want to answer the question I asked in the graphic.

Edit:

The style manual doesn't tell us how to read the NEC. From 1.1 Purpose. It

is used to advise members of the Code-Making Panels on the required editorial style and arrangement of the NEC.

2.1.5 doesn't prevent a CMP from writing definitions within any of the three levels of subdivisions permitted. I don't know how you're interpreting the rules of subdividing sections to mean that the English used is interpreted differently than it is written. 1.1 goes on to say

It is intended to be used as a practicle working tool to assist in making the NEC as clear, usable, and unambiguous as possible.

The way you're trying to use it does just the opposite.

[ August 18, 2005, 04:24 AM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by physis:

I'll ask you again. Do you want to answer the question I asked in the graphic.

Maybe I am not understanding the question you are asking in the picture.

Is the question, what is ?any space??

Answer it must be wall space as outlined in the sentence directly above it.

Are you asking about the fixed panels you have circled?

Answer this is wall space as outlined in the sentence above it.

What I am saying is the Manual of Style says that all three of the items listed below are WALL SPACE

(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings
(2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels
(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

Any space, fixed panels, room dividers are WALL SPACE . I am also saying that I don?t see any relief afforded to the space of a column. Do you?

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

You mean you missed the text to the left on the NEC that specifically addresses your posts?

The circle is some old note.

Are you now saying a column is wall space?

See, the thing is JW, we have to get your position on something nailed down in order to find out what we're talkig about. It's like trying to catch an eel with you sometimes.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Column wall space?

Originally posted by jwelectric: Sam: The ?any space? in 210.52 (A)(2)(1) is controlled by the ?wall space? in sub section (2).

I won't quote the rest of JW's reasoning. I agree with it. I'll say it again, but in my terms: As soon as you get to the words "wall space" in 210.52 (A)(2), you can stop reading. The remainder of that section, including its subsections (1), and (2), and (3), are not applicable to our installation. They apply to wall spaces. A column is not a wall.

And I still contend that 210.52 (A)(2) is not giving a definition of a wall. I don't go there to find out what a wall is. Rather, if I have a wall, and I am not sure if it needs a receptacle, or needs 2, or needs more, then I go there to learn how to measure the wall space.

 

[physis]

Re: Column wall space?

I knew I shouldn't have used the word definition. I didn't mean mean to imply 210.52(A)(2)(1) is a definition.

I was just about to start arguing with you too Charlie when I finally got what you mean.

It sure could be read that way.
It could be read the way I've been reading it too.

I just don't know how CMP 2 does it.

Let take some artistic lisence with the code wording.

A wall space shall include any space (2 ft) or more in width.

It looks a lot like a peice of a definition.