commercial receptacle limits

[ronaldrc]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Don was just thinking and I know thats dangerous.

But since the NEC uses 125 volts less use that figure and round the .8 to 1 and make it 14 anyway, What do you think?

Ronald :roll:

[ July 31, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: ronaldrc ]

 

[bennie]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Four countries, in the world have 115 volts, nominal voltage. Barbados, El Salvador, Trinidad, and Tabago.

In these countries 12 receptacles, in the US 13 receptacles on a 20 amp circuit.

An impossible question is not a test of a persons ability. In the US it is impossible to have a voltage supply designed for 115 volts.

[ July 31, 2003, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

See what you done Roger you ought to be ashamed of your self I wouldn't respond either ?


Ronald :roll:

[ August 01, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: ronaldrc ]

 

[hurk27]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Boy ronald your trying to realy get into trouble LOL

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Bennie you had the correct answer twice on this question.

First the correct answer now is 13. In my 1972 NEC code book the nominal voltage like you said was 115/230 and 12 was correct.

This question like you said is probably old.

Joe and Roger all of us are wrong sometime.

Ronald

[ August 01, 2003, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: ronaldrc ]

 

[bennie]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Thanks Ronald, any test that uses 115 volts as a mathematical factor in the US, is unfair to the test taker.

Now for some trivia...Why do the countries named, use 115 volts nominal? Some countries use 110 volts for the same reason.

 

[charlie b]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Originally posted by ronaldrc:When the NEC discusses AFCI and GFCIs they use the voltage of 125 volts which is not a nominal voltage.

The NEC does not discuss AFCIs and GFCIs in the context of branch circuits with a nominal 125V rating, but rather as supplying 125V outlets. A receptacle rated for 125 volts can be safely installed in a 120V branch circuit. You don?t use the 125 for calculation purposes; it is merely a statement by the manufacturer that the receptacle won?t fail under an imposed voltage of 125V.

 

[charlie b]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Originally posted by bennie: Now for some trivia...Why do the countries named, use 115 volts nominal? Some countries use 110 volts for the same reason.

Because they are poor countries, and cannot afford the extra volts. Perhaps we could take up a collection, and send them some of our surplus volts?

 

[bennie]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Charlie: Right. To sell more power, raise the voltage.

To decrease consumption, decrease voltage.

Plus...incandescent lamps last longer.

[ August 01, 2003, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Charlie I don't think I said they used 125 for calculating I simply said when they discuss AFCI and GFIs they give the voltage of 125 volts.

Charlie why mention 125 volts period why not 120 volts? And keep the confusion on simple matters to a minimum?

When the AFCI first came into play there where some on the electrical forums using this as an excuse not to use them.

And made sense to sensible foxs.

Ronald


Ronald

 

[charlie b]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Originally posted by ronaldrc: why mention 125 volts period why not 120 volts? And keep the confusion on simple matters to a minimum?

Good question! I think I might have written it otherwise, so as to limit confusion. But do keep in mind here (and this is the source of the confusion) that we have an ?apples and oranges? situation. The rating of a device (?apples?) has to exceed the rating of the power source (?oranges?). The receptacle is rated for 125V, the power source is from a nominal 120V system; the voltage references are different beasts.

 

[bennie]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Nominal voltage rating for outlet devices is higher than line voltage. Nominal voltage rating for operating equipment is less than line voltage.

 

[iwire]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Hi Guys, looks like I picked a bad time to be offline. but is seems the topic went elsewhere anyway.

Joe why are you shouting so much?

Bob

[ August 01, 2003, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[joe tedesco]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Bob, iwire:

Bold text will show up when words are placed between the following

 Hyper Text Markup Language:
 
 Please read the following:
 
 [url=http://www.mikeholt.com/codeforum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=ubb_code_page]http://www.mikeholt.com/codeforum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=ubb_code_page[/url]
 
 The word, or complete text of a rule or paragraph, should have no spaces. 
 
 When a point is to be made, the use of [b]Bold[/b] text is recognized on the internet, if that means [b]Shouting[/b] to you so be it. 
 
 [b]My answer to the question of 12 is correct! [/b]
 
 This type of thread, where many disagree for one reason or another, is a waste of everyone's vaulable time, why even some electrician's, some who may even be licensed electricians think so too, and have posted a figure from the NECH to my attention trying to win the argument.
 
 What is your interpretation, you seem to have a good handle on Code rules?
 
  ;)
  
  [size="1"][ August 02, 2003, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: joe tedesco ][/size]

 

[bennie]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Joe: I concede, you are correct. The total is 12 receptacles.

However, this number applies only before 1975, or in El Salvador, Tabago, and any other country using 115 volts.

In the USA, where I live, and work, the number is 13. Show me a distribution system with only 115 volts maximum, and I will concede the number is 12. The minute the line goes to 117 volts, the count goes to 13.

Using 115 volts, for calculations, is a departure from accepted standards.

A student should never be instructed to use 115 when making electrical calculations.

A test should be on the real world, not some play with numbers.

This entire discussion is trivial, it is not about 12 or 13, it is about literally interpreting the code text, and not applying logic.

[ August 02, 2003, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Joe,

This type of thread, where many disagree for one reason or another, is a waste of everyone's vaulable time, why even some electrician's, some who may even be licensed electricians think so too, and have posted a figure from the NECH to my attention trying to win the argument.

If this thread is such a waste of time, why did you make posts in it?

I would still like to know who is permitted to specify the voltage. Why can't I specify 126 volts and install 14 duplex receptacles on the circuit?
Don

[ August 02, 2003, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Joe

OK I agree if you use 115 volts the answer to the question is 12.

But if this where now and not considering the 115 volts the answer would be 13.

I don't think this has been a waste of anyones valuable time.

I believe most that post on here if they had something really important they wouldn't waste the time here on this subject.

People on this forum especially instructors,electricians and others in this field like to discuss these items and its just human nature to want to be correct.


I think most everyone has concluded that no one was incorrect here.

But I do think that Bennie hit the nail on the head, the question is out of date and it was 12 and now it would be 13 if the voltage of 120 was used for the calculation.

Ronald:Everyone one have a great day

 

[joe tedesco]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Don:

Use any number for the voltage you want when writing a code question!

I am still here because I finally won! 12 is the correct answer!

The 2005 NEC ROP includes a proposal that can be commented on, and you or anyone else here who disagrees can send one in to revise that rule {may have been renumbered to 220.5(A)} and ask that the words:

"Unless other voltages are specified.." be removed.

Bennie, I think you are very smart and full of wisdom in your years, and many respect your knowledge, and you too have some good arguments!

I have been there as an NFPA Staff Member to the NEC Committees, a code panel member too, and with other staff did it the old way reading and writing "before computer" to get the words right in the Code when it was released to the public.

Trying to persuade the code panels to make changes in the ROP is really a very political thing, why they throw out only a few bones to some of the people who send in Proposals and Comments!

It is high time that the NFPA really should look into the proposals and comment process asking for no names to be included in the submitted proposals, that would really solve some of there political issues against people who are from the field, working in the trenches, and in the dirty attics and basements, and in the stairwells and in the manholes, if you know what I mean.

I would challange almost any member of any committee to pick any place they want in the USA to make and inspection, and I will bet some wouldn't have a clue!

No offense to any CMP members or any who do frequent this board!!

I am almost finished .. the issues surrounding these rules are usually substantiated, and this one in 220.2(A) was too and can be found somewhere in the older TCR or TCD's?

:roll:

 

[bennie]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Ronald: Very good response. The reason that the nominal voltage was raised in 1975 was due to the entire North American power grid went through a voltage increase. This was due to increased loads and distance of transmission lines.

All components of the power grid have to be at, or real close, to the same voltage when switching.

The voltage variation is caused by load and distance.

What many don't realize is when the voltage is increased, the power consumed is increased in proportion, with out adding any load.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: commercial receptacle limits

Joe,
So if the system is designed for 120 volts, but when the inspection is made the voltage is only 114, can the inspector require that there only be 12 duplex receptacles on the 20 amp circuit?
Don