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commercial receptacle limits

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ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
Re: commercial receptacle limits

I'm going to make one last effert to point out what Bennie, Don, and myself are trying to point out about changing the voltage to make your answer correct.

Lets compare it to this question these figures are just examples and are not correct.

How many horse power does it take to get a 2.5 ton motor vehicle up a 45 degree hill 150, 155,200?

If this where the question it would be like letting you change the degree of the hill from 45 dgrees to somthing else that isn't as steep
and that way you can make the horse power fit your answer.

Thats very clever but it doesn't make it right.

Ronald
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Re: commercial receptacle limits

How many receptacles can be installed on a 20 amp 115 v circuit in a commercial office building?
Because of the use of the word "can" in the question in place of "may" or "are permitted", all answers are correct. The only limit on the number that "can" be installed is the physical size of the building. If the real test question actually used that wording, the question is not valid.

Assuming that the question is really asking the "maximum number permitted", it becomes nothing more than a load calculation, however there are two ways to do this "simple" load calculation, and the results are not the same. The limit on the number of receptacles on this ciruit is the 20 amp circuit size. If you do the calculation like this:
20amps x 115 volts = 2300 va 2300va/180 = 12.778.
There is no code provision that permits you to round up to the next higher whole number.
If you do the calculation like this:
180va/115 volts = 1.565 amps 1.565 amps x 13 receptacles = 20.348 amps.
In this case, 220.2(B) premits fractional amps less than 0.5 amps to be dropped, therefore the load for 13 duplex receptacles is 20 amps and is permitted on a 20 amp branch circuit.
Don
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: commercial receptacle limits

Thanks Bennie, Bob, and Ronald.

Ronald,
I never try to start an arguement
LOL thats a good one. ;)

Don, from Websters dictionary;

can: 5 [Colloq.] am, are, or is permitted; may -vt. :cool:

In reality the question was probably worded as "permitted" but it has been a long time and it may have been as far back as the 70's, (I started in 75) the (D) answer was probably more like " no limit". The problem with figuring the per amp method and dropping to small fraction would be the first sentence of 210.19(A)(1) and if a length was stated 310.15(A)(2) the "lower" figure would have to be used.

Roger
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Re: commercial receptacle limits

Roger,
In my opinion the "load" is per the Article 220 calculaitons and would be 20 amps for 13 duplex receptacles on a 115 volt circuit, therefore I see no problem with 210.19(A). I don't see where 310.15(A)(2) applies to this installation. That section has to do with the ampcity of the conductor, not the load.

From the comment in the American Heritage Dictionary:
"Usage Note: Generations of grammarians and teachers have insisted that can should be used only to express the capacity to do something, and that may must be used to express permission. But children do not use can to ask permission out of a desire to be stubbornly perverse. They have learned it as an idiomatic expression from adults: After you clean your room, you can go outside and play. As part of the spoken language, this use of can is perfectly acceptable. This is especially true for negative questions, such as Can't I have the car tonight? probably because using mayn't instead of can't sounds unnatural. Nevertheless, in more formal usage the distinction between can and may still has many adherents. Only 21 percent of the Usage Panel accepts can instead of may in the sentence Can I take another week to submit the application? The heightened formality of may sometimes highlights the speaker's role in giving permission. You may leave the room when you are finished implies that permission is given by the speaker. You can leave the room when you are finished implies that permission is part of a rule or policy rather than a decision on the speaker's part. For this reason, may sees considerable use in official announcements: Students may pick up the application forms tomorrow."

It appears that the word "can" is used to imply consent or permission, so the the question is ok. I still don't agree that we are limited to 12 duplex receptacles and guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Don
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: commercial receptacle limits

Ronald, as far as the house is concerned you can put as many receptacles as you want on a circuit. Was this a test? :D

Roger
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: commercial receptacle limits

Ronald, all kidding aside. If the POCO is supplying 128v and this was shown to the inspector there wouldn't be any reason for him to reject the installation. It may not be specified but would be a fact. The ampacity of the conductor wouldn't be in question so I don't see a problem, but it might be better to have an engineer specify 128/256 v 1 phase or what ever. (That was a little bit of a joke :) )

Roger
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: commercial receptacle limits

I'll drink to that.
ernaehrung004.gif


[ August 04, 2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 

pierre

Senior Member
Re: commercial receptacle limits

I have just come back from a 10 day honeymoon. Reading this thread makes me say that 10 days in the tropics, sipping tropical drinks floating in the surf and having not a care in the world really refreshes the brain. Why come back?

Oh well! here I am and I will put in my two cents to make this the 'new world record' thread. :D

As mentioned in another thread, for ten people there will be ten ways to answer, here there are many ways to answer as we can all see.

The test question in question here is (IMHO) asked to see how well a person reads and understands what is being asked. Stating 115 volts in the question is just seeing if one reads 115 volts nominal as opposed to the 120 volt nominal, and than applying it to art 220. The question is not asking about a 'real life' situation, simply it is asking the reader to read the question and answer accordingly. The difference is that if one is to answer 13 he/she is wrong and will miss the question. If he/she answers 12 he/she will get the correct answer. There are many questions on the test that 'test' a person's reading skill as well as understanding the question, because reading (or not reading) one word incorrectly in the sentence will change the meaning of the question. The same can be said of the NEC; and, or, and other 'simple' words will completely change the meaning of a sentence.

BTW - reading the passion in the responses here is great to see.

Pierre
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: commercial receptacle limits

Originally posted by ronaldrc: How many horse power does it take to get a 2.5 ton motor vehicle up a 45 degree hill 150, 155,200? If this where the question it would be like letting you change the degree of the hill from 45 degrees to something else that isn't as steep, and that way you can make the horse power fit your answer.
I don?t think this thread is long enough yet, so I?ll throw in my dime?s worth (Hey, I am a consultant, so my two cent?s worth will not come cheap!).

Sorry ronaldrc, but for two reasons this analogy doesn?t help clear up the issue. First, your question cannot be answered. Power (of which ?horsepower? is one unit of measure) involves a force (you gave that ? the weight of the vehicle) that is applied through a distance of travel during a period of time. The question leaves out both the height of the hill and the desired time for the lift.

More to the point, however, is that you propose to change, as the key variable in your analogy, the angle of the hill. This variable would correspond more closely to the resistance of the circuit then to the ?motive force? (the horse, in your analogy, and the voltage source, in a circuit).

It seems to me that an important aspect of this whole question has been missed. What we need to remember is that the ?180 VA? is an artificial number that is provided (for convenience and consistency of calculation) by code, and not a constant value that is established by the laws of physics. Suppose we plug a 16 amp heater into one 20 amp outlet and plug a 16 amp fan into another, and then impose a voltage of 115 on both. For starters, both circuits will draw more than 10 times the 180 VA used to calculate the outlet?s load. Secondly, if you now raise the voltage to 120, current in the heater will go up (more VA!), and current in the fan will go down (constant VA). What happens to the meaning of the 180 VA in this experiment? Nothing! It never really existed, or at least not in a physical sense.

So where does that leave the original question? Let me cite a rule of technical communications: ?It doesn?t say what you think it says. Rather, it says what it says.? The laws of physics would assert that a 120V source can push more energy through a circuit than can a 115V source. True, but irrelevant. The question says 115V, and to answer THAT question, you must use 115V. Go back to post #11 (from Roger): ?Answer the question as asked.? If I were the instructor, I would feel justified in marking as incorrect anything other than ?B.? But then, I would also feel ashamed for having written such a poorly worded question. I prefer to design questions to test a person?s knowledge and understanding, not to test a person?s alertness.
 

ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
Re: commercial receptacle limits

Charlie I wasn't trying to give a physic lesson which I couldn't if I wanted to.

But I do appreciate your comments.Lets make this a record breaking thread I looked back through the archives the other day there is one that has over 200 replies we have a long way to go.

Ronald :)
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: commercial receptacle limits

Originally posted by ronaldrc:
I looked back through the archives the other day there is one that has over 200 replies
Don't leave us hanging what was the thread
medium-smiley-067.gif
 

ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
Re: commercial receptacle limits

I don't remember it was back 40 or so posts I went back the first 50 and got tired it was closer to 300 replies don't remember the exact amount sorry, like that smiley thats cute.

Ronald :)
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: commercial receptacle limits

I remember one that got deleted right at 100 once. It got pretty hot,
angry-smiley-005.gif


a DIYer was deliberatly causing trouble. (trolling)

Where's Bennie?

Roger
 

ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
Re: commercial receptacle limits

Trouble makers I don't know what to think about them, I just no its good to no I was right about 13.

Ronald :roll:
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: commercial receptacle limits

Do what? :D

Roger
 

engy

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Re: commercial receptacle limits

You are all wrong, the answer is 25.
The question asks how many receptacles, not receptacle outlets.
What if I have a single piece of equipment with 4 or more receptacles?
2300/90 = 25.5
Now do we argue 25 or 26? (2400/90=26.7)
 
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