Conductor ampacity

I see no language in 110.14(C) restricting any part of it to unlisted equipment. You are correct that for listed equipment, 110.3(B) also probably bears on the question, but 110.14(C) still applies, and is more directly on point.
Yeah we agree on 110.14(C), I say 110.14(C)(1) would apply if the equipment is non-listed, perhaps re-winding a old motor and need to size a motor lead for example.
Back to the OP I understood him to be referencing free air type gear you might see at a large industrial site such as a fuesd pullout on a pole;
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At one time the NEC had a over 600V but that got moved to over 1000V, so say that fuesd pullout is for a 40 amp fuse on 690Y400V system, thats what I think of as not needing to follow 310.16
 
Yeah we agree on 110.14(C)
I meant including its subparts.
, I say 110.14(C)(1) would apply if the equipment is non-listed
It also applies if it listed.

Back to the OP I understood him to be referencing free air type gear you might see at a large industrial site such as a fuesd pullout on a pole. At one time the NEC had a over 600V but that got moved to over 1000V, so say that fuesd pullout is for a 40 amp fuse on 690Y400V system, thats what I think of as not needing to follow 310.16
I think there's zero chance the OP was referencing such equipment.

But you raise an interesting point, sometimes such a fused pullout would be subject to the NEC. So what's the listing standard for such a pullout? Per 2023 NEC 240.7, it would be required to be listed if it is to be used to comply with Article 240.

Seems like 110.14(C)(1) would apply, and so the ampacity would need to follow Table 310.16 unless it is "listed and marked otherwise". Would be very interested to check the listing standard to see if it has provisions for such listing and marking.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Yeah we agree on 110.14(C), I say 110.14(C)(1) would apply if the equipment is non-listed, perhaps re-winding a old motor and need to size a motor lead for example.
Back to the OP I understood him to be referencing free air type gear you might see at a large industrial site such as a fuesd pullout on a pole;
View attachment 2575583
At one time the NEC had a over 600V but that got moved to over 1000V, so say that fuesd pullout is for a 40 amp fuse on 690Y400V system, thats what I think of as not needing to follow 310.16
If you have a bare conductor there is Table 310.21 giving you a conductor ampacity but there is nothing in there to associate ampacity with any temperature. Not sure how you that with coordinate with terminal temperature ratings, which a lot of those kinds of items are 90C terminals AFAIK. Also for mechanical reasons on something out in the elements like this the conductor often may be physically larger than what minimum size ampacity wise may be. Take a 25 kVA transformer on a 7.2kV line - full load primary amps be about 3.5 amps. They don't use an 18 AWG conductor as it won't last long in the weather conditions. Around here they are using at least 6 AWG maybe even 4 AWG just for physical strength reasons.
 
So what's the listing standard for such a pullout? Per 2023 NEC 240.7, it would be required to be listed if it is to be used to comply with Article 240.
The design of such a pullout means it will be rated in the kVs. Several minutes of attempting to find a UL listing standard for such a pullout has come up empty. One manufacturer (ABB) described one of their products under "standards and design testing" as "The LBU-II cutout meets or exceeds all applicable requirements of EEI, NEMA SG-2, and IEEE C37.41 and C37.42 standards." Not familiar with those standards, but does anyone other than UL create "listing standards" that the NEC would recognize when it uses the term "listed"? [I mean the standard itself; obviously there are other NRTLs besides UL that can test to a listing standard.]

Cheers, Wayne
 
The design of such a pullout means it will be rated in the kVs. Several minutes of attempting to find a UL listing standard for such a pullout has come up empty. One manufacturer (ABB) described one of their products under "standards and design testing" as "The LBU-II cutout meets or exceeds all applicable requirements of EEI, NEMA SG-2, and IEEE C37.41 and C37.42 standards." Not familiar with those standards, but does anyone other than UL create "listing standards" that the NEC would recognize when it uses the term "listed"? [I mean the standard itself; obviously there are other NRTLs besides UL that can test to a listing standard.]

Cheers, Wayne
A lot of medium voltage stuff is not listed. Not sure that there are listing standards for some of the medium and high voltage equipment.
You can find a list of ANSI Standards Development Organizations here.
UL does write most of the standards used in the electrical industry, but there are others.
 
Yeah there is sort of a dead band created between 601 volts and 1000 volts, it used to be part 2 3 of 110 applied to over 600 volts then you could use 110.40 for a free air 690Y400 volt fused pullout.
If you go back to the 1993 proposal 110.14(C) never referenced an ampacity table, until the wording change in 2002.
And back in '93 a 690 volt system would have used 90C terminations as in the 93 code that would still be 'over 600 volts'.
 
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Below is an excerpt from the current UL Guideinfo from product category AALZ "Electrical Equipment for Use in Ordinary Locations". I gather the relevant sections are unchanged from 1993, when 110.14(C) was added to the NEC to bring some of these requirements directly into the NEC. [Note that the reference to Table 310.15(B)(16) is out of date; that is NEC Table 310.16 starting with the 2020 NEC.]

The second and third paragraphs are what 110.14(C) has codified. Along with the marking requirement in 110.14(C)(1), they mean that for an equipment termination marked "75C" with no other marking, the ampacity of a conductor landed on it will be the Table 310.16 75C column ampacity of the wire size used.

Other tables may only be used for the termination ampacity if provided for in the "general Guide Information" in the product category, and if the equipment is so marked per 110.14(C)(1). The maximum size wire the termination can accept is immaterial; the ampacity is based on the Table 310.16 60C or 75C column value for the wire size actually installed, without any adjustment or correction.

Cheers, Wayne


Excerpt from UL Guideinfo AALZ "Electrical Equipment for Use in Ordinary Locations"

[ . . .]

Distribution and Control Equipment Terminations

Some terminals are suitable for use only with copper wire. Where aluminum or copper-clad aluminum wire can or shall be used (some crimp terminals may be certified only for aluminum wire), there is marking to indicate this. Such marking is required to be independent of any marking on terminal connectors, such as on a wiring diagram or other visible location. The marking may be in an abbreviated form, such as "AL-CU."

Except as noted in the following paragraphs or in the general Guide Information for some product categories, the termination provisions are based on the use of 60°C ampacities for wire size Nos. 14-1 AWG, and 75°C ampacities for wire size Nos. 1/0 AWG and larger, as specified in Table 310.15(B)(16) of the NEC. Termination provisions are determined based on values provided in Table 310.15(B)(16) with no adjustment made for correction factors.

Some distribution and control equipment is marked to indicate the required temperature rating of each field-installed conductor. If the equipment, normally intended for connection by wire sizes within the range 14-1 AWG, is marked "75C" or "60/75C," it is intended that 75°C insulated wire may be used at full 75°C ampacity. Where the connection is made to a circuit breaker or switch within the equipment, such a circuit breaker or switch must also be marked for the temperature rating of the conductor.

A 75°C conductor temperature marking on a circuit breaker or switch normally intended for wire sizes 14-1 AWG does not in itself indicate that 75°C insulated wire can be used unless 1) the circuit breaker or switch is used by itself, such as in a separate enclosure, or 2) the equipment in which the circuit breaker or switch is installed is also so marked.

A 75 or 90°C temperature marking on a terminal (e.g., AL7, CU7AL, AL7CU or AL9, CU9AL, AL9CU) does not in itself indicate that 75 or 90°C insulated wire can be used unless the equipment in which the terminals are installed is marked for 75 or 90°C.

Higher temperature rated conductors than specified may be used if the size is based on the above statements.

For equipment with rated voltages above 2000 V, the termination provisions are based on the use of MV-90 or MV-105 type copper or aluminum conductors. Equipment investigated only for connection using bus bars, is provided with instructions for proper connection.

Copper-clad Aluminum Conductors — Copper-clad aluminum conductors are subject to the ampacity requirements applicable to aluminum conductors.

. . . [No further discussion of ampacity or termination temperature.]
 
The second and third paragraphs are what 110.14(C) has codified. Along with the marking requirement in 110.14(C)(1), they mean that for an equipment termination marked "75C" with no other marking, the ampacity of a conductor landed on it will be the Table 310.16 75C column ampacity of the wire size used.
OK...I'll point out the obvious.

The text you quoted doesn't say that. It doesn't say anything about the ampacity of the conductor, and the words "wire size used" don't appear anywhere in that text.
 
The text you quoted doesn't say that. It doesn't say anything about the ampacity of the conductor, and the words "wire size used" don't appear anywhere in that text.
I agree that the phrase "wire size used" or "wire size connected" are not in the AALZ text quoted. But I believe it is very clear that every use of the word "wire" is referring to the actual wire connected to the termination. Particularly in the second excerpt below.

As to ampacity, that is discussed in two sentences that also refer to temperature ratings, and they both refer to the ampacity of the wire:

" based on the use of 60°C ampacities for wire size Nos. 14-1 AWG, and 75°C ampacities for wire size Nos. 1/0 AWG and larger, as specified in Table 310.15(B)(16) of the NEC."
"If the equipment, normally intended for connection by wire sizes within the range 14-1 AWG, is marked "75C" or "60/75C," it is intended that 75°C insulated wire may be used at full 75°C ampacity."

So as a minimalist interpretation, since every termination is going to engage some non-zero length of the conductor, the above refers to the ampacity of the portion of the wire that is engaged in the termination.

I don't think it's really necessary to be so spatially precise, it's enough to know that 110.14(C) and AALZ impose a limit on the overall circuit ampacity that is determined by taking the wire type and size landed on the terminal, and the termination temperature those requirements allow us to use, and looking up the value in (almost always) Table 310.16, with no further adjustment to that value.

Cheers, Wayne
 
I don't think it's really necessary to be so spatially precise, it's enough to know that 110.14(C) and AALZ impose a limit on the overall circuit ampacity that is determined by taking the wire type and size landed on the terminal, and the termination temperature those requirements allow us to use, and looking up the value in (almost always) Table 310.16, with no further adjustment to that value.
OK...I'll point out the obvious. Neither 110.14(C) or AALZ impose a limit on the overall circuit ampacity that is determined by taking the wire type and size landed on the terminal.

Neither of those sections talks about imposing a limit on the overall circuit ampacity at all.

110.14 is about Electrical Connections.

What you quoted from AALZ is about Distribution and Control Equipment Terminations.

Neither is about circuit ampacity.
 
110.14(C) Covers the temperature rating and thus ampacity of a conductor field electricians typically install such as service, feeder or branch circuit conductors:
The temperature rating associated with the ampacity of a conductor shall be selected and
coordinated so as not to exceed the lowest temperature rating of any connected termination, conductor, or device.
To comply with 110.14(C) on listed equipment electricians should refer to the installation instructions included in the listing, as well labeling on equipment per 110.3(B), if the equipment is listed then it ends there.
Only if you still need to determine the 'termination provisions of equipment' do you need to look to 110.14(C)(1) such as equipment that is not listed or marked otherwise such as motors with design letters, non-listed HVAC, custom panels etc, a fallback default per say.

So for example if I am a motor rewinding shop or motor manufacturer and I am not going to follow NEMA or UL standards and my motor leads are only good for a 50C conductor, 110.14(C)(1) is going to step in as a fallback and say the termination provisions of equipment, my motor leads need to at least comply with 110.14(C)(1).
 
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What you quoted from AALZ is about Distribution and Control Equipment Terminations.
OK, good point.

So my AALZ excerpt above applies to the terminations at either end of a feeder, or at the supply end of a branch circuit, but not at a piece of utilization equipment on a branch circuit. Instead, the text excerpted below from AALZ applies to the termination at a piece of utilization equipment.

There is an interesting difference between the second paragraph of the AALZ text below and the previously excerpted text. Namely if you have say a 60A panelboard marked 75C and circuit breakers marked 60C/75C, you can use 75C or 90C rated conductors at the 75C Table 310.16 ampacity. Whereas for utilization equipment that requires a 60A circuit, it would need to be marked "75C, use #6 Cu conductors" (or similar wording) to permit the use of the 75C ampacity. In other cases you would need to use the 60C Table 310.16 ampacity for conductor sizing, and if the marking is just "75C", you need to use 75C insulation without using the 75C ampacity. [Edit: as noted in the first sentence of the paragraph, certain product categories may override this text; for example, IIRC UL 1995 on HVAC equipment specifies that termination are to be rated for use of 75C conductors at their 75C ampacity.]

So the AALZ text on Appliance and Utilization Equipment Terminations is stricter than the allowances of 110.14(C)(1)(a) on terminations.

Neither is about circuit ampacity.
OK, "circuit ampacity" is an imprecise term, and it is only used in the NEC in article 430.

So let me be more precise. When performing the ampacity check required by NEC 215.2(A)(1)(a) or 210.19(A)(1)(a), which involves ampacity without adjustment or correction, that is a "termination ampacity" check, and ampacity is determined via 110.14(C) / AALZ, and the ampacity is the unadjusted value from (almost always) Table 310.16 for the wire size connected to the termination, at the appropriate temperature of 60C or 75C, as determined by 110.14(C) and AALZ.

Cheers, Wayne


Appliance and Utilization Equipment Terminations

Except as noted in the general Guide Information for some product categories, terminals, unless marked otherwise, are for use only with copper wire. If aluminum or copper-clad aluminum wire can be used, marking to indicate this fact is provided. Such marking is required to be independent of any marking on terminal connectors, such as on a wiring diagram or other visible location. The marking may be in an abbreviated form, such as "AL-CU."

Except as noted in the general Guide Information for some product categories, the termination provisions are based on the use of 60°C insulated conductors in circuits rated 100 A or less, and the use of 75°C insulated conductors in higher rated circuits as specified in Table 310.15(B)(16) of the NEC. If the termination provisions on equipment are based on the use of other conductors, the equipment is either marked with both the size and temperature rating of the conductors to be used or with only the temperature rating of the conductors to be used. If the equipment is only marked for use with conductors having a higher (75 or 90°C) temperature rating (wire size not specified), the 60°C ampacities (for circuits rated 100 A or less) and 75°C ampacities (for circuits rated over 100 A) should be used to determine wire size. Conductors having a temperature rating higher than specified may be used, though not required, if the size of the conductors is determined on the basis of the 60°C ampacity (circuits rated 100 A or less) or 75°C ampacity (circuits rated over 100 A).
 
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110.14(C) Covers the temperature rating and thus ampacity of a conductor field electricians typically install such as service, feeder or branch circuit conductors:

To comply with 110.14(C) on listed equipment electricians should refer to the installation instructions included in the listing, as well labeling on equipment per 110.3(B), if the equipment is listed then it ends there.
Again, there is nothing in 110.14(C) first paragraph that says "it ends there" and that 110.14(C)(1) only applies to unlisted equipment. You're just making that up.

110.14(C) is the general principle. 110.14(C)(1) tells you how the principle works out for all equipment terminations. If the equipment is listed, you also have to comply with any listing requirements per 110.3(B); hopefully UL and the NEC are coordinated so that the requirements are the same (but see the 3rd paragraph of my just prior post). And 110.14(C)(2) tells you how the principle works out for wire connectors that are not equipment.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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I am with Wayne here.

If you ask anyone who works at UL as an inspector they will 100% reference AALZ's language and 110.14(C) as being a factor in considering the circuit's ampacity since nobody uses wireless electricity to power their loads.

This gets even more complicated when we start talking about flexible cord and Table 400.5.
 
Again, there is nothing in 110.14(C) first paragraph that says "it ends there" and that 110.14(C)(1) only applies to unlisted equipment. You're just making that up.
Per 2.1.6.3.3 of the NEC style manual
https://docinfofiles.nfpa.org/files/AboutTheCodes/70/NEC_Style_Manual_2023_v2.pdf

"References to Subdivisions. References to subdivisions within a requirement shall include
the section number prior to the subdivision."
110.14(C) does not refer to 110.14(C)(1) and or 110.14(C)(2)
 
Per 2.1.6.3.3 of the NEC style manual
https://docinfofiles.nfpa.org/files/AboutTheCodes/70/NEC_Style_Manual_2023_v2.pdf

"References to Subdivisions. References to subdivisions within a requirement shall include
the section number prior to the subdivision."
110.14(C) does not refer to 110.14(C)(1) and or 110.14(C)(2)
You are misinterpreting what 2.1.6.3.3 means. All it is saying is that, for example, when the first sentence of 110.14(C)(1) says "The determination of termination provisions of equipment shall be based on 110.14(C)(1)(a) or (C)(1)(b)" the style manual requires that inclusion of the section number 110.14. It would violate the style manual 2.1.6.3.3 for that sentence to read "The determination of termination provisions of equipment shall be based on (C)(1)(a) or (C)(1)(b)."

A generic reference to 110.14 means the entire section. And a generic reference to the first level subdivision 110.14(C) includes all further subdivisions of that first level subdivision, like 110.14(C)(1), 110.14(C)(2), etc.

And I have no idea how any of this is relevant to our discussion.

Cheers, Wayne
 
If a manufacturer has already determined the temp ratings of the termination provisions of their equipment and had it listed and marked it is unnecessary for a field electrician to re-determine it again using 110.14(C)(1).
 
If a manufacturer has already determined the temp ratings of the termination provisions of their equipment and had it listed and marked it is unnecessary for a field electrician to re-determine it again using 110.14(C)(1).
Sure, so if the termination says "use 75C rated #6 Cu" that's what you do (higher temp rating fine, larger size not OK). [And assuming this is for at most 65A and to be protected at 70A or smaller OCPD. If the instructions specify a higher current or a higher OCPD, somebody messed up, and you can't install that equipment in compliance with the NEC.]

But some terminations are more complicated than that. 110.14(C) covers a broader range of cases.

Cheers, Wayne
 
I have not read this whole thread but here is one for the group:
Today I worked on a ductless heatpump install that had something to the effect of "Use 75 degree conductors only" marked on the units.
The manufacturer supplies a short spool of #14/4 Tray Cable (which is rated 75C) to route to the indoor units from the outdoor compressor, it was a little short for both runs so I used 14/3 UF cable for one of the runs. Did I violate code by terminating the UF cable on a 75C termination?
The MOCP is 25A
 
If you ask anyone who works at UL as an inspector they will 100% reference AALZ's language and 110.14(C) as being a factor in considering the circuit's ampacity since nobody uses wireless electricity to power their loads.
Nothing in the AALZ's language or 110.14(C) says anything about the circuit's ampacity.
 
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