Copper clad

[don_resqcapt19]

There is a small to moderate amount of discussion about it, but besides you nobody who seems to work with it regularly. So it is good to hear your opinion.

Do you use CCA as romex only, or in any other form (THHN, MC etc.)?

When you wire a house do you use the same size breakers with larger wire, or do you make more circuits 15 amp to use the same size wire? Electric water heater on 25A 10 AWG CCA?

We did an apartment job a long time ago with the new alloy aluminum and we just used the same size and number of circuits as we would have with copper...just one size larger wire. That was a thinwall job so it was all single conductors. The new alloy in the 10 and 12 AWG size was only on the market because of all of the issues with the old aluminum NM that resulted in a lot of fires. I expect it would be the same with the CCA.

 

[electrofelon]

My take: the price of copper isn't high enough for me to consider CCA to replace #14 and #12 CU. The actual cost of the wire is really just a very small part of the job. Maybe, maybe I would look at it to replace #10 CU. I already use AL SER for 50 amp stuff.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Meth-head copper thieves aren’t going to realize it’s CCA until they try to sell it. By then, the damage has been done.

We went to copper clad wire for our pole grounds and substation fence grounds Some years back.
our thoughts were to “train” the thieves that these are worthless.
we also had to go around to the scrap yards and ”train” the guys taking the scrap and filling out the form.
I took a 5 gallon bucket in and he weighed it for #1 bright. As he was writing the receipt, I told him to stop and put a magnet in the bucket. He saw very quick he could be losing his job fast when the owner finds out he is paying that kind of money for useless scrap. Told him that ground rod I saw in his pile was steel also. As I was leaving he was taking a magnet to all the copper piles.

a thief tries to cut #2 cu clad he will know quick its not copper. That craps hard. We also have 4/0 cu clad.
and you think 4/0 copper is hard to bend…

 

[ActionDave]

......a thief tries to cut #2 cu clad he will know quick its not copper. That craps hard. We also have 4/0 cu clad.
and you think 4/0 copper is hard to bend…

I just want to be clear, you are saying 4/0 copper clad aluminium is harder to bend than 4/0 copper? I would have never guessed it.

 

[electrofelon]

I just want to be clear, you are saying 4/0 copper clad aluminium is harder to bend than 4/0 copper? I would have never guessed it.

That confuses me at first too, but I think he's talking about copper clad steel.

 

[Fred B]

I just want to be clear, you are saying 4/0 copper clad aluminium is harder to bend than 4/0 copper? I would have never guessed it.

Have not seen a listing for CCA any bigger than #2 THHN.
Would imagine if available amp per amp CCA would be harder to manipulate than the CU equivalent just because of the larger size per amp.

 

[TBsmd4]

Mostly we wire single family and mutifamily residential. But there is occasionally some retail thrown in. So we use some MC and THHN.
Good questions, by the way!
We use it just like any type of NM-B. Same panels, breakers and devices. 310.16 causes us to upsize the wire from copper sizes: #12 cca (copper clad) for 15 amp circuits, #10 for 20 amp circuits, and #8 for 30 amp appliances like water heaters. We use aluminum SER for 240 volt circuits a lot, and it is sized like cca. It's per code to use the 75 degree column for SER (with a few exceptions), which lets us use a #6 SER for a 50 amp range.

I saw a comment earlier that said cca was only 10-20% less expensive. That may be true, but if you use much of it, like we do, that adds up. Who was the politician that once said "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money?". Haha. I probably butchered that, but hopefully you get the idea. It is a game changer, in my opinion.

 

[TBsmd4]

Have not seen a listing for CCA any bigger than #2 THHN.
Would imagine if available amp per amp CCA would be harder to manipulate than the CU equivalent just because of the larger size per amp.

Just my experience, but I find it easier to bend than copper. I suspect it has to do with aluminum being more flexible, and the annealing process used in the manufacturing process. And I'm told that we can get up to 500 KCMIL copper clad aluminum. I think the copper clad steel is only used in the utility market.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I just want to be clear, you are saying 4/0 copper clad aluminium is harder to bend than 4/0 copper? I would have never guessed it.

Copper clad steel is what we use.
but then again, we don’t wire houses

 

[kwired]

I use 25a 2poles often but for AC and minisplits and WH. For general receptacles and lighting it'll always be limited to 20a. If it was 10awg CU it would still be limited to 20a

General receptacles (5-15 and 5-20) for most part should never be on more than a 20 amp OCPD. Lighting, up to 50 amp circuits are permitted, though not many luminaires today are acceptable for use on such a circuit AFAIK. The old mogul base lamp holders including HID luminaires with such lamp holders were primarily what was permitted to be on up to 50 amp circuits

 

[AC\DC]

I saw a comment earlier that said cca was only 10-20% less expensive. That may be true, but if you use much of it, like we do, that adds up. Who was the politician that once said "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money?". Haha. I probably butchered that, but hopefully you get the idea. It is a game changer, in my opinion.

yes, but all the extra lengths cause you have extra jumpers cause of box fill- that time it takes to run those extra jumpers. The wire nuts rated for copper clad. When I put it in McCormick.there was no saving what so ever.

 

[kwired]

Have not seen a listing for CCA any bigger than #2 THHN.
Would imagine if available amp per amp CCA would be harder to manipulate than the CU equivalent just because of the larger size per amp.

Maybe. 250 aluminum kind of easier to bend than 3/0 copper simply because it has smaller strands. 250 aluminum also easier to bend than 4/0 aluminum because of smaller strands. 250 is where the strand count usually goes up from 19 to 37.

 

[TBsmd4]

yes, but all the extra lengths cause you have extra jumpers cause of box fill- that time it takes to run those extra jumpers. The wire nuts rated for copper clad. When I put it in McCormick.there was no saving what so ever.

Not sure what you are calling jumpers? And we use whatever wire nuts are less expensive and/or available. No need for anything special because you terminate just like copper. There is no contact with aluminum.
I understand how it is harder to quantify. And honestly, the fewer contractors that use it the more competitive we are. lol.

 

[AC\DC]

Not sure what you are calling jumpers? And we use whatever wire nuts are less expensive and/or available. No need for anything special because you terminate just like copper. There is no contact with aluminum.
I understand how it is harder to quantify. And honestly, the fewer contractors that use it the more competitive we are. lol.

You have to make sure your wire nuts are listed for ccu.
As far as “ jumpers” with the upsizing of conductor you have more of an issue with box full so “may” have to run more wire. Instead of going to like a central area.
If I could find a box with more cubic inch but my Arlington adjustable are the largest I found.
I get you I was going to use it. Just found not worth the hassle. Track homes it would be good since your margins are lower

 

[TBsmd4]

Yes, box fill is a consideration. We usually only have to adjust for multigang switch outlets though.
The wire nut issue is a hot topic, for sure. NEC does not require wire nuts to be listed, but most manufacturers do it anyway. Similar to staples. They don't have to be listed, but if you use a listed staple it must conform to the listing. Copperweld manufacturer instructions do not require anything special in the way of wire nuts. Because some AHJ's require it anyway, they sell a wire nut listed for cca. I expect other manufacturers will follow suit and add cca to their listing. After all, copper clad has been absent for a generation, so most see it as a new product. It takes awhile for the new guy to become accepted.

Great conversation, by the way! Thank you!

 

[AC\DC]

Now you are wanting me to try it again.

 

[Fred B]

See no advantage to CCA vs AL on larger wire when you have no load advantage and higher cost than AL. Now if CCA offered a load advantage somewhere between CU and AL, use of CCA for subpanel feed might be worth it. IE if a #2 CCA @75deg column was rated to a full 100A not 90A of the AL, it would be a game changer for me.

Some studies I've seen would seem to indicate CCA is able to withstand a higher load than plain AL. If that would bear out, and such was to be codified to reflect that, that too would make a difference.

 

[Birken Vogt]

#8 for 30 amp appliances like water heaters.

Are you aware that a standard 4500 watt water heater can theoretically use #10 CCA on a 25 amp breaker?

Thanks for all the answers. Having someone who really likes and uses it is helpful.

 

[TwistLock]

I have a few large resi complexes I work on that were built around '74 with Cerro CCA. I hope the new alloy can take more than two bends without stress cracking. I can tell you first hand I have to be very careful with terminations & stripping #10 / #12. I avoid pre-twisting too. If an apprentice were to barely knick the cladding, barely, it will start to crack with only one bend.

 

[Eddie702]

I have a few large resi complexes I work on that were built around '74 with Cerro CCA. I hope the new alloy can take more than two bends without stress cracking. I can tell you first hand I have to be very careful with terminations & stripping #10 / #12. I avoid pre-twisting too. If an apprentice were to barely knick the cladding, barely, it will start to crack with only one bend.

I agree. The older stuff you bend it and it breaks easily.

Maybe the new stuff is better.