Craigslist in Greenville, SC...rant time....

[cadpoint]

Because it restricts a man's ability to earn a living with no benefit to anyone. There is no example of tradecraft licensing ever enhancing safety or quality.

I'm seem this arguement before from you, you even quoted/linked articles.

I don't argree with this line of thinking. Why limit it to trades!

In general, most laws are to the benefit of the public welfare, or from others or themselves, and theres two types of infractions of the Law, Civil and Criminal.

I beleive there plenty of information in the insurance industry as to the cost ratios of insurance to Licensed, semi-licensed and non licensed States.

I've seem other odd reactions to licensing here. This is only a platform for me to voice a strong distaste from what I've read.

I don't think this is a good presentent of the argument.
I can only assume you cross all the "t's" and dot all the "I's" but we'd expect nothing less.

Some people just follow the law, others what to be buck the system.

I don't think your one of those that don't pay your due's and know everything about your Commonwealth's Law...

Isn't it great that we have this freedom to follow or deflect the law, "but ignorance of the law is no defense"

 

[cadpoint]

I read an interesteting article about the top ten reason why the i-net will fold and how the providers will bill for access (to sites)and not the use of.

I-net and focal groups and what the new deal is to go after the providers for content ...

It's always a buyer beware market, the general public is smarter due to access, enjoy the Surf !

Thumbs ups or thumbs down...(surfer thing) its been awhile...

 

[mdshunk]

I beleive there plenty of information in the insurance industry as to the cost ratios of insurance to Licensed, semi-licensed and non licensed States.

Actually, there isn't. Matter of fact, the very few studies that have been done with regard to the effect of tradecraft licensing show a negative result for the consumer. There is absolutely no enhancement safety or quality of the resultant work performed when the tradesman becomes licensed. The one famous example was one state who's incidence of tooth decay increased remarkably in the years after they licensed dentists.

 

[peter d]

Matter of fact, the very few studies that have been done with regard to the effect of tradecraft licensing show a negative result for the consumer.

I'm really missing your point here. I can't comprehend how apprenticeship, licensing, continuing education, and inspection is doing any disservice to customers. Did they happen to quantify this "negative result for the consumer" with respect to mechanical trades at all?

Yes, I don't like the fact that the government is involved in this process every step of the way. But it is what it is, and like any system it's corrupt in some ways, but it works most of the time. Any barrier to entry into the electrical trade is a benefit for electricians and EC's alike.

 

[mdshunk]

I'm really missing your point here. I can't comprehend how apprenticeship, licensing, continuing education, and inspection is doing any disservice to customers. Did they happen to quantify this "negative result for the consumer" with respect to mechanical trades at all?

I haven't said anything at all about apprenticeship, continuing education, or inspections. All of those things have great value. Licensing is what I have an issue with. Licensing does nothing relevant for the consumer or the tradesman.

 

[peter d]

I haven't said anything at all about apprenticeship, continuing education, or inspections. All of those things have great value. Licensing is what I have an issue with. Licensing does nothing relevant for the consumer or the tradesman.

It's just my point of view because all of those things are inextricably linked together here in New England. You remove one piece and the chain falls apart. I realize it's different elsewhere but all of those things are part of the package, so to speak.

 

[Buck Parrish]

I Licensing is what I have an issue with. Licensing does nothing relevant for the consumer or the tradesman.

Most of these small towns have inspectors with no electrical license inspecting my work.

 

[mdshunk]

It's just my point of view because all of those things are inextricably linked together here in New England. You remove one piece and the chain falls apart. I realize it's different elsewhere but all of those things are part of the package, so to speak.

Only because they've made it that way. A man's lack of a trade license is not a permission slip for him to do the job wrongly or unsafely. Likewise, the fact that another man has a license is no guarantee that the job is done well or safely. Codes set the standards of practice. Inspections assure compliance. Licenses only serve to create barriers to entry in a given field.

 

[c2500]

Inspections assure compliance. .

Do they though? I am positive you can wing an inspection and have the inspector miss something. (No offense to the inspectors here) After the inspection, I can go botch something. The inspector will never know. So how can you rely on an inspection to be the protection for someone? Besides, an inspection cannot be obtained by someone who is not licensed. Therefore that arguement is moot. Inspections are in place to make sure the people who are licensed are doing their job correctly. No matter how good someone is at their job, there is a chance for error. The inspections are there to reduce errors/mistakes. Inspections are the equivilant of taking a test in school (at least the way I view them) my goal is to have studied and do well preferably make an A. 9 times out of 10, I make the A. Yet we all have bad days and sometimes we just don't make the grade. No license, who cares about grades. We don't have to answer to anyone.

A license does not guarantee quality work...I'll give you that any day of the week. BUT....A license that was received after taking a test, at least gives you a small degree of confidence because the person taking the test had to have some understanding of the material, to have passed the test. From this, it is logical to derive that the test taker has some degree of interest in the material he was tested for, and has a higher probability of doing quality work than that of someone who cannot or will not take the test for the license.

What do you see more of, jack legs doing lousy work or licensed individuals doing lousy work? I'd put my money on the jack legs doing lousy work any day.

c2500

 

[knoppdude]

Only because they've made it that way. A man's lack of a trade license is not a permission slip for him to do the job wrongly or unsafely. Likewise, the fact that another man has a license is no guarantee that the job is done well or safely. Codes set the standards of practice. Inspections assure compliance. Licenses only serve to create barriers to entry in a given field.

To an extent, this is true, but the barriers are not impossible to overcome. While California's recently enacted licensing exam for electricians is a simple exam, a person was required to have performed a certain number of on the job training hours to take the test. This requirement is the true barrier to entry, and for good reason. You are right that a license is no guarantee of a job done right, any more than years worked in the field ensure good work, or inspectors trying to inspect quality into the job ensure the job is done at an adequate level of quality. What Ca's test really measures is how well a person can navigate the code book. In my opinion, this is not asking too much, as the NEC is as much of a tool of the trade as any other. If we are going to get rid of one barrier of entry to the field, we should get rid of them all, and let the "free market" determine our destiny.

 

[sparky59]

a license requirement has made the price of electrical work increase for the customer. we have to pay for insurance, license fees , education, and guaranteeing our work. but, from my experience, it has increased the quality and safety of the work that is being done. a lot of the handymen in my area did some dangerous installations. after 15 yrs. i still have the code book in my truck and usually look something up almost every day.

 

[quogueelectric]

I haven't said anything at all about apprenticeship, continuing education, or inspections. All of those things have great value. Licensing is what I have an issue with. Licensing does nothing relevant for the consumer or the tradesman.

Licensing basically assigns responsibility and accountability for any work that is done. I have no problem with that aspect. Getting 20 licenses in a 50 mile radius is just sheer greed.

 

[growler]

The one famous example was one state who's incidence of tooth decay increased remarkably in the years after they licensed dentists.

Before Dentist were required to have a license the Dentist tended not to have enough knowledge to fill a tooth and just yanked those suckers out of there.

There wasn't a lot of tooth decay and not many teeth either.

At one time a ships carpenter was slotted to replace the ships doctor if anything happened to the doctor because the capenter was very familiar with the use of a saw. I'm kind of glad those days are over.

 

[emahler]

Licensing basically assigns responsibility and accountability for any work that is done. I have no problem with that aspect. Getting 20 licenses in a 50 mile radius is just sheer greed.

exactly....Marc you are off base on this one...the minimum requirements to attain a license are in no way a barrier to anyone competent....to argue that licensing is irrelevant is to argue for anarchy....while anarchy in theory is awesome, so is communism....in reality neither work.

I am however in favor of national licensing (i.e. pass the test in one state, be legal in all) and I am not in favor of the current licensing and fee structure (as the cow pointed out)

but none of that negates the fact that a license is simply designed to hold someone accountable for their actions...it's a shame that too many states and municipalities don't understand this....

 

[mdshunk]

Lack of licensing is not anarchy. After all, farmers are not licensed and anarchy on the farm does not exist. Electrician licensing does not exist in a few states yet, and anarchy in those trades does not exist. People pull a permit, do the work, and have the job inspected; pass or fail. Licensing does nothing to enhance that process. It does serve, however, to boost the bottom line of those who are licensed and it gives them something to gloat about. "Here's this little card. Let me tell you how good I am." Accountability still exists without licensing. After all, the accountable party pulled a permit and is having his work inspected.

 

[emahler]

Lack of licensing is not anarchy. After all, farmers are not licensed and anarchy on the farm does not exist. Electrician licensing does not exist in a few states yet, and anarchy in those trades does not exist. People pull a permit, do the work, and have the job inspected; pass or fail. Licensing does nothing to enhance that process. It does serve, however, to boost the bottom line of those who are licensed and it gives them something to gloat about. "Here's this little card. Let me tell you how good I am." Accountability still exists without licensing. After all, the accountable party pulled a permit and is having his work inspected.

not quite...in states that require an actual test for a license, it indicates at the least a basic knowledge....i would agree with you in cases where the license is simply a form and a fee...

my personal opinion is that there should be 2 nationwide licenses...a journeyman's - which is a purely technical license, and is a tested license....and a contractors - which is a purely business/law license, and is also a tested license...

I believe that both licenses should be required in order to become a contractor in any state...but one nationwide license for each...

the odds of a permit being pulled, licensed or not, for much of the industry that an unlicensed person can operate in, is slim to none. So i don't see it as a viable way to ensure competence....and if permits were pulled for all the work, the townships would need to triple their inspection staff - causing an increase to consumers anyway...

 

[bikeindy]

I agree with Marc on this subject 100% everything he has said is correct I would add. We have more hack work going on in the areas where licencing is required than in the areas where it is not required. can someone explain that to me if licenses are to make the world better.

 

[nakulak]

I'm really not so sure that licensing provides any more protection to anyone as to the aspect of holding someone accountable. It holds honest guys responsible, but they are not the ones doing work without permits and licenses.

Let me give you an example. Several years ago an individual (ex employee) pulled permits on our company license without our knowledge. (he was a helper when he worked for us). Because he did shoddy work and a customer complained to the board, we got a letter in the mail demanding that we show up to the board and explain. We would otherwise have never known this was going on. We pulled all the active permits and shut his jobs down. We asked the board to go after this guy, but guess what, since the board is only authorized to certify/decertify/punish electricians and electrical contractors, they can't do anything about this clown. Only civil and criminal court can punish him. So the electrical board for this particular county (and many others) can only punish guys who are already licensed (presumably the good guys).

So it is my opinion that the main reason for electrical licensing boards and such is merely to 1) collect revenue and 2) police the legitamate contractors. Based on my limited experience, the notion that licensing boards are going to stop handymen and guys on craigs list is just wishful thinking, and the idea that there will ever be a national standard is a wet dream. Why would they have a national standard when their main mission is to collect revenue for their own jurisdiction ?

 

[Minuteman]

I agree with Marc on this subject 100% everything he has said is correct I would add. We have more hack work going on in the areas where licencing is required than in the areas where it is not required. can someone explain that to me if licenses are to make the world better.

Do you have data to back that up, or is that just an off the cuff statement?

Licensing is not the end all perfect way to police the trade and protect the consumer, but it helps. Not having a drivers license does not make me less of a driver, but it does produce a a legal basis for recourse should a license holders choose to disobey the law. The government can't control what it does not police. They can't take your license if you don't have one.

One example would be, that if a license holder here neglects to take the required CEU, their license will expire. Get caught working with an expired license and you will be given a citation. Most employers would rather just send an employee home than to allow the process to elevate.

If nothing else, licencing in some states tends to produces better wages. I would pay a kid with 4 years of experience and a license far more than I would a guy with 10 years of experience and no license.

 

[mdshunk]

If nothing else, licencing in some states tends to produces better wages. I would pay a kid with 4 years of experience and a license far more than I would a guy with 10 years of experience and no license.

That, right there, is the real reason why men rise in favor of licensing, regardless of what's coming out of their mouth presently.