Craigslist in Greenville, SC...rant time....

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iwire said:
Couple more posts and we will have this issue settled. :grin:
Probably not. By the time a person reaches a certain point in their life, they've already made up their mind on stuff like this. I just enjoy talking about it, is all.
 
c2500 said:
Do you really think that without licensing there would be less instances of death and fire due to poor workmanship? We do not live in Utopia. We also do not live in the wild west anymore.

Here is how it works when a license is not required. This state did not require a General Contractors license until this summer so the GC's were not really worried about losing their license ( talking about small time operators ). Many small contractor never pull permits for remodeling work and even do much work for which they do not hold a license ( electrical & plumbing). Why not, it's just extra money for them.

A GC gets in trouble for writing bad checks, not paying subs, not paying taxes, not completing jobs or just doing shoddy work. They may take his business license away but guess what, there is nothing to prevent him sending his wife down to city hall to get a business license as a GC. Back in business the very next day. It also makes it easy for a whole lot of bogus corporations to operate. Even hacks from out of state, the one's that couldn't get a license at home for some reason, even criminal background)

Without a license requirement it's very hard to regulate contractors. The only recourse is civil or criminal court. It's much easier for the state to deal with licensed contractors. A license can be suspended or revoked for many infractions of the law ( to include not paying child support or failure to pay taxes ).
 
mdshunk said:
Electrician licensing does not exist in a few states yet, and anarchy in those trades does not exist. People pull a permit, do the work, and have the job inspected; pass or fail.
If there is a Government employed inspector checking the work, and even provision for pulling a permit, then no that isn't anarchy.
Also, you guys keep tossing Anarchy around like it's a bad word or something.
The fact is we spend most of our day operating in a Anarchist society, we are, for the most part, unregulated in our day to day activity. There's not even a full time police officer where I live, and we aren't all killing each other in the streets.

In a perfect world, there is no need for Government. The Government can't do anything that the (truly) free market can't do better, and it is not the function of Government to regulate most of the things we've allowed it to become involved in.
I think Ayn Rand said it best - "The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

In life, there only needs to be one rule (or law if you prefer). If you do not intentially harm another person in any way, and you make restitution to those you have harmed unintentionally, then the need for Government disappears for the most part.
Courts would be relegated to moderating breach of contract disputes, and it might be nice to have a Navy for national defense, but everything else would go away.

BUT, we don't live in a perfect world do we?
For some people even that one rule is too many, so we end up with what we've got.

Strange topic for an electrical forum, but it does play into the work we all do, and I'm glad to see it being discussed so civilly here.
 
AndyS said:
There's not even a full time police officer where I live, and we aren't all killing each other in the streets. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.

I can show you places where there are not many police officers because they are afraid to go there. You are free to move there and property values are really cheap. Not much regulation at all.

Anarchy is a bad thing.
 
I think licensing requirements help. I'm required to complete continuing education classes on electrical theory and code requirements in order to renew my license every other year. I believe this helps to ensure the consumer recieves a safe and quality electrical installation when they hire someone who is licensed.

I doubt there are very few if any licensed electricians that would create a mess like the one in the photos below. I highly doubt this work was done by a licensed electrician. I also believe that the unlicensed person, calling himself an electrician, that most likely completed this work feels that he did a fine job and it's perfectly safe.

Why? Because he never had to have any formal training or education to get a license and he doesn't know any better. I believe the license is there to ensure that the person performing the work has had some formal training and education and knows that the work below is not a fine job and is not safe. If you visit this bar I would sit at a table near an emergency exit.

The drunk at the end of the bar: "You don't need to hire a licensed electrician. I know all about electrical wiring. I can wire this place up for you just fine."

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Here's my 0.02 cents worth. After reading this thread I looked on Craigslist for my area and found numerous "handyman" services advertising they would do every thing from wash your house to change out the service, rebuild fences or re-plumb your house. They have now become "slick" in the licensing department. They advertise they are licensed up to $30,000.00. This is supposed to give the impression that they hold a license when in fact in NC you are not requried to have a GC license if the project is under $30k, however it doesn't cover doing any electrical or plumbing work. Any electrical work should have permits, inspections and the person doing the work be licensed or be the homeowner doing the electrical in their own home.
When I sat for the electrical license I was in the last group to take the test in one location on paper, before they went to online testing all over the state. There were 759 people taking the test, some were taking the test just to wire well pumps all the way to the unlimited test. Out of the 759 there were 228 of us that passed. Do I feel superior? No. Can I quote code word for word, as some of you can? No. Do I know how and where to look up code? Yes. Do I know where to ask questions if I am not sure? Yes, right here. Should I charge more because I hold a license, carry liability and WC insurance, keep up my continuing education credits, paperwork, taxes and all the other baggage that comes along with it? Yes. Or should I advertise like one that I saw, A.F.A.B. Handyman service(anything for a buck)? I dont think so.
 
growler said:
I can show you places where there are not many police officers because they are afraid to go there. You are free to move there and property values are really cheap. Not much regulation at all.

Anarchy is a bad thing.
As are you, or you can live in the most restrictively regulated gated subdivision, in the most restrictively regulated city in the country, and sleep all warm in your bed at night safe in the assumption that all those laws will keep you safe.
Good luck with that.
 
Good posts and I'ld like to throw my 2 cents in.

I back the license. In my area (Maine) you need X amount of school, X amount of on the job training as a helper to get the next license and then more hours of on the job training before you can pull permits and work for yourself. This process takes a long time and tends to install confidence in the people we work for.
It also gives us "law and order". If you check our state website, you can find public records on all in state electricians. If we have a hack in our ranks, you can find what they did and the penelty (usually being demoted to a lower license for a period of time)
 
mdshunk said:
The two real reasons are to create another barrier to entry and the other is to drive up wages/contractor profits.

So, are these good or bad things for electricians and the electrical trade in general?
 
mdshunk said:
Some (me) may argue that the requirement for a professional license is a violation of my civil liberties.

Then where do you draw the line? Are driver's licenses against your civil liberties too? If we take this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion then we have no laws and no government because they could all be viewed as breeches of our civil liberties.
 
peter d said:
Then where do you draw the line? Are driver's licenses against your civil liberties too? If we take this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion then we have no laws and no government because they could all be viewed as breeches of our civil liberties.
Now you've got it!
 
mdshunk said:
Some (me) may argue that the requirement for a professional license is a violation of my civil liberties.

I am curious how you draw the line between the Govt requiring a license which your against and the Govt requiring an inspection which you seem to be for. :confused:

Both inhibit our liberty.
 
iwire said:
I am curious how you draw the line between the Govt requiring a license which your against and the Govt requiring an inspection which you seem to be for. :confused:

Both inhibit our liberty.
Good point Bob, me too.
 
mdshunk said:
Right here. Where do you draw your line?

Well I can't really answer that question without turning this thread into forbidden topics (religious beliefs)....so we'll have to leave it at that.
 
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