CU vs AL

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infinity

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Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Just calculated totals on fly...thinks it's close

Alum- material $4700 labor 158 hours
Copper - material $11500 labor 123 hours

So the difference in labor (I'll use $125/hr) is:

158-123=35 hours * $125 = $4375

Material difference $11500-$4700= $6800

So you save some money on the Al wire but spend more hours installing it. None of this factors in the cost difference between the 3" and 4" tubing.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The wiring internal to our panels was single core run in slotted trunking to keep it neat and tidy. No real space constraints.
Externally, yes it was multi-core SWA. But there is nothing to prevent either being in Al if that had been a more commercially advantageous option.
The why remains.
I don't mean to derail the thread but it seems a reasonable point to make.

Just to widen the topic a little further, I've worked on commissioning projects in many parts of the world. I can't honestly recall Al cables being used on any of them.
It's a puzzler for me.
Many of the engineers will design with copper.
Many "design/build" contractors will offer aluminum as a way to cut some costs. Aluminum works fine, needs to be larger size then copper does for the same current carrying ability. Aluminum alloys used today are also much better then they were many years ago.

Most dwellings and smaller capacity services here in the US use aluminum conductors for main supply and some of the major feeders, but use copper for smaller branch circuits.

Just checked one of my supply house on line pricing (I may get better pricing from a salesman then the online service gives me, but it is nice to use that service for quick checks/estimating purposes) 3/0 AWG single copper conductor would cost 3.37 per foot and is good for 200 amps most applications. 250 kcmil aluminum conductor is good for 205 amps most applications and is only .90 per foot. Big difference in cost when you have 3/4 conductors per run and a long run. Voltage drop of course may make you increase size/cost even more with either type.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
So the difference in labor (I'll use $125/hr) is:

158-123=35 hours * $125 = $4375

Material difference $11500-$4700= $6800

So you save some money on the Al wire but spend more hours installing it. None of this factors in the cost difference between the 3" and 4" tubing.

his estimate has a cost difference for 4 vs 3
~$650 fittings and all, 33% more
$2569.45 vs $1918.33
$125 is a sell rate (is that the bid rate? around here around $60 plus 15 and 20%)
the material is cost
so with 25% mu the material diff goes to $8500
 
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Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Many of the engineers will design with copper.
Many "design/build" contractors will offer aluminum as a way to cut some costs. Aluminum works fine, needs to be larger size then copper does for the same current carrying ability. Aluminum alloys used today are also much better then they were many years ago.

Most dwellings and smaller capacity services here in the US use aluminum conductors for main supply and some of the major feeders, but use copper for smaller branch circuits.

Just checked one of my supply house on line pricing (I may get better pricing from a salesman then the online service gives me, but it is nice to use that service for quick checks/estimating purposes) 3/0 AWG single copper conductor would cost 3.37 per foot and is good for 200 amps most applications. 250 kcmil aluminum conductor is good for 205 amps most applications and is only .90 per foot. Big difference in cost when you have 3/4 conductors per run and a long run. Voltage drop of course may make you increase size/cost even more with either type.
My background is industrial rather than residential. But our incomer is copper from a local 11kV/400V ONAN transformer. We, and others, get phase to neutral - nominally 230V. All internal wiring is CU.

If Al was a cheaper WTG you'd think somebody, even pikies, would be touting it.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
My background is industrial rather than residential. But our incomer is copper from a local 11kV/400V ONAN transformer. We, and others, get phase to neutral - nominally 230V. All internal wiring is CU.

If Al was a cheaper WTG you'd think somebody, even pikies, would be touting it.

Cheap - the American way - well quite often anyway.

Ford motor company introduced all aluminum body trucks not so long ago. Don't know a lot about them or how well they are performing.
I think purchase price wasn't what this was all about though - lighter body was to equate to less fuel usage I believe was one factor in this.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
his estimate has a cost difference for 4 vs 3
~$650 fittings and all, 33% more
$2569.45 vs $1918.33
$125 is a sell rate (is that the bid rate? around here around $60 plus 15 and 20%)
the material is cost
so with 25% mu the material diff goes to $8500

You might be right with the EMT cost variable in the numbers. In Mrlucky's jurisdiction a Journeyman makes about $102/hr with benefits.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
:)
We generally base it on the cable tables in BS7671, "The Regs".
These tables also cover ratings for Al cables so I'm sure they do get used sometimes.

The only time I've seen aluminium used for conductors was for the output bars on high current rectifiers.
These were in the 10kA to 70kA systems we did. Cable tables didn't cover that.......:)

Isn't your T&D also CU?
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
You might be right with the EMT cost variable in the numbers. In Mrlucky's jurisdiction a Journeyman makes about $102/hr with benefits.


prevailing wage/ibew highest nj county
W55.93 B32.13 T88.06

even with that and 25% m/u on materials
the Al is $5500 cheaper
the labor is 30% higher, not 70 as in the op
still not clear on where those labor units come from, seems too much delta 3 to 4"
plus the conductor costs seem too low

the point that was made in the op was that Cu was cheaper, it is not
 

mstrlucky74

Senior Member
Location
NJ
prevailing wage/ibew highest nj county
W55.93 B32.13 T88.06

even with that and 25% m/u on materials
the Al is $5500 cheaper
the labor is 30% higher, not 70 as in the op
still not clear on where those labor units come from, seems too much delta 3 to 4"
plus the conductor costs seem too low

the point that was made in the op was that Cu was cheaper, it is not
In the scenario I posted it is more labor for the AL and i agree with the labor units difference between the two. Tell me what labor units you disagree with. Don't forget they've upsized the conduit and added a set for th AL.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
In the scenario I posted it is more labor for the AL and i agree with the labor units difference between the two. Tell me what labor units you disagree with. Don't forget they've upsized the conduit and added a set for th AL.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I disagree that Cu is cheaper as posted in the OP
ising 25% on the material and $125/hr labor 24k vs 30k
Cu is 25% more, using more realistic conductor and labor costs even greater
I disagree that the Al labor is 70% more as posted in the OP

what was the source of your labor units?
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I disagree that Cu is cheaper as posted in the OP
ising 25% on the material and $125/hr labor 24k vs 30k
Cu is 25% more, using more realistic conductor and labor costs even greater
I disagree that the Al labor is 70% more as posted in the OP

what was the source of your labor units?

Every time we have run the numbers with the exception of short conductor runs, aluminum has won.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Every time we have run the numbers with the exception of short conductor runs, aluminum has won.

+1 on that. and not by a little.

the last time i did a lot of pulling, i used 250mcm AL instead of 4/0 CU,
and 500mcm AL instead of 500mcm CU, as the current requirements worked out
for that.

the price spread on simpull back then between the two was the aluminum was 24%
of the copper. that included the size difference. i was buying it in 2,500' spools to
save on wastage, and my per foot cost was a quarter of copper.

the spread isn't as large now, based on a quick google.

to make, in my mind, and the AHJ's mind, the installation acceptable, i hypressed
all terminations, and used panduit 600v UL listed heavy shrink tube to cover the
terminations. on breaker terminations, i used finger lugs.

more labor? sure. hypress, with all the dies for copper, al, and grounding was $10k.
panduit heat shrink is slow and expensive, but nowhere near 3M cold shrinks cost,
so i used it.

there was 12,000' of conduit on the job. was it worth it? yeah, just a little bit.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
In the scenario I posted it is more labor for the AL and i agree with the labor units difference between the two. Tell me what labor units you disagree with. Don't forget they've upsized the conduit and added a set for th AL.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Try re-running your numbers with RMC instead of EMT. As I previously mentioned many posts back, changing from 3 to 4" could be where going to Al and the larger conduit costs more, on paper anyway.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
prevailing wage/ibew highest nj county
W55.93 B32.13 T88.06

Mrlucky doesn't work in NJ. I was close with my initial estimate.

Electrician "A" (Regular Day / Day Shift)
Effective Period: 7/1/2017 - 5/9/2018
Wage Rate per Hour: $56.00
Supplemental Benefit Rate per Hour: $54.35
Effective Period: 5/10/2018 - 6/30/2018
Wage Rate per Hour: $56.00
Supplemental Benefit Rate per Hour: $55.72

https://comptroller.nyc.gov/services/for-the-public/prevailing-wage/wage-schedules/
 
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