Customer is Concerned with Cost of Upgrade from POCO......

[peter d]

It happens here in limited places, usually at the edge of city limits.

My first house had the option for two utilities as I was at the end of both an REA line and a municipal utility line. I went the the co-op and my neighbors had the city utility.

I'm working on a project right now that has both REA and GA power on the property, and the owner has a choice.

There are no REA's in my area but I would love to have one as an option like that. Investor owned utilities generally are the worst while the REA's and municipals are the best.

 

[cdslotz]

I am unaware of more than one provider in every place I have been. Are you saying that there are competing POCOs in some regions???

Only one main POCO here (there are a few outlying co-ops and pocos)
Here in the DFW area Oncor is the POCO.....they service and construct the infrastructure. Their sister company is a provider , TXU..
There are dozens of provider to choose from, like Gexa, Reliant, etc...
When you see your bill from them, a fee is shown on your statement that goes to Oncor....even if TXU is your provider, Oncor's fee is added

 

[electrofelon]

Out of curiosity, what utility is it? I did a 480 1200 with inland power and their charge was $24,000: 135 foot UG primary (their wire, my ditch) , 500 kva tranny, no new pole but added cross arms and cutouts. Doubt it's apples and oranges as it sounds like you have a line extension too. IIRC the tranny was about $15k of that

 

[dionysius]

Out of curiosity, what utility is it? I did a 480 1200 with inland power and their charge was $24,000: 135 foot UG primary (their wire, my ditch) , 500 kva tranny, no new pole but added cross arms and cutouts. Doubt it's apples and oranges as it sounds like you have a line extension too. IIRC the tranny was about $15k of that

500 kVA tranny is not big enough for 480 1200......don't you need 1000 kVA tranny???

 

[electrofelon]

500 kVA tranny is not big enough for 480 1200......don't you need 1000 kVA tranny???

The utility sizes their transformer, and most often what they come up with is much less than the NEC service size. Half is very typical.

 

[rbalex]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the fact that utilities have a significantly different business/maintenance model than commercial or industrial facilities. Even for most small utilities, if the service transformer fails it can usually be replaced in hours or a day or so at the worst. Now transformers, even remanufactured, are pretty rugged beasts so the odds are in the customers favor; however, any problem with it will very likely be a big one.

 

[dionysius]

The utility sizes their transformer, and most often what they come up with is much less than the NEC service size. Half is very typical.

Electrofelon, Please check my calc on this.

(1,000,000/3)/277 = 1203.37 Amps per phase

So for a 480Y/277V 1200 Amp service he must have a 1000 kVA transformer.

 

[Iron_Ben]

Electrofelon, Please check my calc on this.

(1,000,000/3)/277 = 1203.37 Amps per phase

So for a 480Y/277V 1200 Amp service he must have a 1000 kVA transformer.

Your math is right, but as Electrofelon indicated, the utility will install whatever size they like. For a 1200 amp 480 service, I've installed as small as three 75's. Biggest would have been a 500. Never installed a 750 or 1000. Utilities would be wasting many millions if they matched transformer size to service size. We sized to anticipated load; as small as reasonably possible.

 

[dionysius]

Your math is right, but as Electrofelon indicated, the utility will install whatever size they like. For a 1200 amp 480 service, I've installed as small as three 75's. Biggest would have been a 500. Never installed a 750 or 1000. Utilities would be wasting many millions if they matched transformer size to service size. We sized to anticipated load; as small as reasonably possible.

This really helps. Thank you. Now if you paid up front for 1200 Amp and in a year you exceed the smaller tranny capacity will they make good with no more to pay for upgrade until you hit the full 1200 A????? Also will they compensate for down time for changeover?????

 

[electrofelon]

This really helps. Thank you. Now if you paid up front for 1200 Amp and in a year you exceed the smaller tranny capacity will they make good with no more to pay for upgrade until you hit the full 1200 A????? Also will they compensate for down time for changeover?????

You might think that since you "paid the utility for a 1200 amp service" then they would upgrade their transformer at their cost down the line if there was an issue within that service size, however I have rarely found that to be the case.

 

[dionysius]

You might think that since you "paid the utility for a 1200 amp service" then they would upgrade their transformer at their cost down the line if there was an issue within that service size, however I have rarely found that to be the case.

I hear with dismay what you are saying. You are saying if the customer pays for 1200 Amps and he starts out with 400 A then they will take advantage of him by charging him double and triple on the initial contract. Has this been challenged legally???

 

[petersonra]

You might think that since you "paid the utility for a 1200 amp service" then they would upgrade their transformer at their cost down the line if there was an issue within that service size, however I have rarely found that to be the case.

How many times have you had them install a 1200 amp service where the 1200 amp service really needed 1200 amps? That would be an unusual service. It would not surprise me in the least if in their tariffs here is some kind of description of what a 1200 amp service actually means. It may not mean that the service is capable of providing 1200 amps continuously.

 

[peter d]

Your math is right, but as Electrofelon indicated, the utility will install whatever size they like. For a 1200 amp 480 service, I've installed as small as three 75's. Biggest would have been a 500. Never installed a 750 or 1000. Utilities would be wasting many millions if they matched transformer size to service size. We sized to anticipated load; as small as reasonably possible.

Did you work for PECO or FirstEnergy?

 

[electrofelon]

I hear with dismay what you are saying. You are saying if the customer pays for 1200 Amps and he starts out with 400 A then they will take advantage of him by charging him double and triple on the initial contract. Has this been challenged legally???

I don't see that they are doing anything wrong. They are going by the loads you submit during the design phase, and they could probably care less what the main switch rating or nec load Calc is. So a nec 400 amp and 1200 amp service could very well be the same thing to the utility.

 

[kwired]

I am currently working on a job 1200 amp 208/120 service to be installed. Calculated load is only in the 500-600 amp range - per NEC actual load likely will average less then that majority of the time. POCO is going to install a 225kVA transformer which is only 625 amps.

POCO did bill customer for their upgrades. They are not paying POCO for a 1200 amp service, they are paying for infrastructure supplying the 225 kVA transformer. My service conductors will land in their transformer and customer pays me same for them regardless if POCO supplies a 225kVA, 150 kVA or a 500 kVA transformer.

Now if down the road more load gets added my 1200 amp service was chosen in part because it didn't cost much more then going with 800 amps and would allow for a fair amount of added load without having to upgrade service equipment. If it comes down to needing a larger transformer the infrastructure is all there and all that needs changed would be to swap the transformer. Likely the POCO would give them some credit on their old transformer and charge them whatever is necessary at the time the new one is added. But this being a publicly owned utility things do work a little differently then for many others. The charges the POCO bills the customer in a case like this are not profit driven, they are only what is necessary to offset their costs, and they do consider the amount of energy that will be sold in determining those figures. If you happen to need a large capacity service but with limited peak demand the costs will be higher then if you have same capacity with longer high demand periods anticipated.

Your investor owned utility companies are much more likely to rape you on such charges because everything they do is profit driven, where with the public owned utility all the customers are the owners/investors, and the operation procedures are about wisely using the owners funds to operate the system efficiently but without excessive profits. What profits are made are reinvested into improvements of the operation, not to fatten the wallets of the investors.

 

[dionysius]

I am currently working on a job 1200 amp 208/120 service to be installed. Calculated load is only in the 500-600 amp range - per NEC actual load likely will average less then that majority of the time. POCO is going to install a 225kVA transformer which is only 625 amps.

POCO did bill customer for their upgrades. They are not paying POCO for a 1200 amp service, they are paying for infrastructure supplying the 225 kVA transformer. My service conductors will land in their transformer and customer pays me same for them regardless if POCO supplies a 225kVA, 150 kVA or a 500 kVA transformer.

Now if down the road more load gets added my 1200 amp service was chosen in part because it didn't cost much more then going with 800 amps and would allow for a fair amount of added load without having to upgrade service equipment. If it comes down to needing a larger transformer the infrastructure is all there and all that needs changed would be to swap the transformer. Likely the POCO would give them some credit on their old transformer and charge them whatever is necessary at the time the new one is added. But this being a publicly owned utility things do work a little differently then for many others. The charges the POCO bills the customer in a case like this are not profit driven, they are only what is necessary to offset their costs, and they do consider the amount of energy that will be sold in determining those figures. If you happen to need a large capacity service but with limited peak demand the costs will be higher then if you have same capacity with longer high demand periods anticipated.

Your investor owned utility companies are much more likely to rape you on such charges because everything they do is profit driven, where with the public owned utility all the customers are the owners/investors, and the operation procedures are about wisely using the owners funds to operate the system efficiently but without excessive profits. What profits are made are reinvested into improvements of the operation, not to fatten the wallets of the investors.

Thank you. My interest like yours are collateral since it is the customer is the one paying.
I am interested to know how it all works however for future jobs. If I hear you correctly, what you are saying is that costs are totally estimated load driven??? If customer gives different load schedules as follows then the costs will also be different:

Scenario A: 200 amps in year 1 and grow to 700 amps by year 5 then the cost will be $A
Scenario B: 600 amps in year 1 and grow to 700 amps by year 5 then the cost will be $B​

Will cost $A be less than cost $B since in Scenario A they will use a smaller trafo on outset than in Scenario B???

In 5 years will the customer have to pay for a larger trafo if the smaller one in year 1 needs to be replaced???
And who owns the trafo.......the POCO or the customer?????
In this example the service requested by customer is same at 1200 amps as above.

 

[kwired]

Thank you. My interest like yours are collateral since it is the customer is the one paying.
I am interested to know how it all works however for future jobs. If I hear you correctly, what you are saying is that costs are totally estimated load driven??? If customer gives different load schedules as follows then the costs will also be different:

Scenario A: 200 amps in year 1 and grow to 700 amps by year 5 then the cost will be $A
Scenario B: 600 amps in year 1 and grow to 700 amps by year 5 then the cost will be $B​

Will cost $A be less than cost $B since in Scenario A they will use a smaller trafo on outset than in Scenario B???

In 5 years will the customer have to pay for a larger trafo if the smaller one in year 1 needs to be replaced???
And who owns the trafo.......the POCO or the customer?????
In this example the service requested by customer is same at 1200 amps as above.

POCO doesn't look so much at amps as they look at watts - that is what is being sold. Next thing they look at is peak demands and duration of those peaks. They need to be able to supply them without overheating their equipment. If the peak demands are limited, maybe just an hour or two they will use a smaller transformer then if the peak demand is for 8, 10, or even 12 hours, they figure the smaller transformer can take that hit yet has time to cool after the peak is over, where the long demand periods will not get the same cooling opportunity and will fail sooner.

They also look at the fact that if you have a short but high peak demand that they will have higher equipment costs but will not have as much energy sales so payback on their investment of equipment is longer - they will likely charge the customer more for that service then another customer with same equipment that has overall higher consumption.

This all based on what I have seen from local POCO's that are public utilities. Private investor utilities don't exist around here, but would not be surprised to see them charge a higher setup/commissioning fee for these services - they are about profits not about customer interests, but they still have you where they want you because you have no other choice but onsite production which will normally cost you more then what they are offering.

 

[dionysius]

They also look at the fact that if you have a short but high peak demand that they will have higher equipment costs but will not have as much energy sales so payback on their investment of equipment is longer - they will likely charge the customer more for that service then another customer with same equipment that has overall higher consumption.

However this policy on the part of the POCO runs contrary to the fact that they literally prohibit the customer from buying his own transformer and state that they do not want it that way. A customer can buy a remanufactured trafo for less than half of what POCO wants. And forget about the lifetime maintenance story since the customer has absolutely no problem assuming that risk. He says he can save $15,000 on a top class oil filled copper wound trafo if he buys his own, plus he would own it. This does seem somewhat unfair, even unamerican. If you were a customer would you be happy??

 

[JFletcher]

Ive an (maybe) interesting story about peak demands: about 20 years ago, maintenance at one of the WW plants operated a 1,000HP 4160V blower for 45 minutes... while another 1,000HP blower was already online (as well as the rest of the plant). That peak sent the plant's charges into the stratosphere, to the tune of about $52,000 in extra charges. Until that bill came, not even the plant electricians knew about industrial billing from the poco. After, even plant assistants double checked before turning on an extra 20hp pump haha.

Just asking here, would an 800A total service work?

 

[dionysius]

Ive an (maybe) interesting story about peak demands: about 20 years ago, maintenance at one of the WW plants operated a 1,000HP 4160V blower for 45 minutes... while another 1,000HP blower was already online (as well as the rest of the plant). That peak sent the plant's charges into the stratosphere, to the tune of about $52,000 in extra charges. Until that bill came, not even the plant electricians knew about industrial billing from the poco. After, even plant assistants double checked before turning on an extra 20hp pump haha.

Just asking here, would an 800A total service work?

I would say yes but it will be close. The 1200 A is some flex room.