Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by jwelectric:
to lazy to go back and read them. when I get home tonight I will go back and post the links to them for you.

I will be looking forward to that.

As am I.

I looked up all that agree that only the two required S.A branch circuits need be figured into the calculation and I must say it is an impressive group.

Roger

[ June 27, 2005, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Bob,
my
point
was
that given this way out situation it might been wiser to figured in more va.Had they been on the 2 SA they would not be able to have all this on at one time.So if we choose to go over the 2 required then perhaps we do need to add them to the calculation.In reality i dought it would be nearly this bad and the main would probably hold.

I do have a friend that has parties every sat night and we been managing not to trip the 200 amp main.House plus a ever increasing cheaky hut of about 1,000 feet and an out door serving area.I wired the cheeky with a 100 amp sub panel and we have yet to kick the main 200.
Did manage to wear out an old GE 200 Amp main panel and replaced with a cutler hammer.This is not a normal use of a residence but does happen to tune of about 100 people

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Hey Roger, I haven't entered a decision yet. You're not trying to sway the jury are you?

Suddenly I'm having an inclination to side with the impressive people.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Bob,
my
point
was
that given this way out situation it might been wiser to figured in more va.

LOL you found the enter key.

That is not the question.

The question is about what the code requires us to do.

 

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by physis:
Hey Roger, I haven't entered a decision yet. You're not trying to sway the jury are you?

Suddenly I'm having an inclination to side with the impressive people.

Roger

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

By Bob:

I am working nights for the near future and I see you all had some more fun with this while I was gone.

As my night work only consists in changing ballasts you can bet I was thinking about this thread.

Sorry to digress. This thread is completely out of control and I'm having to go back several pages just to get to last night.

I've had to upgrade from T-12 to T-8 for days in a row. Are you able to get one done in 7 1/2 minutes. I wont even ask if it's 277 hot. Before you answer, I still got grief from the EC because I was too slow.

Edit: I didn't give Bob credit for the quote.

[ June 27, 2005, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

By Roger:

Well if you want to be right in the matter, the impressive group is the only group.

The book's on my desk, open to the opropriate section. Unfortunately it's not my style to go with popular opinion, unless I also happen to agree.

It's just a matter of my actually getting around to doing the reading.

It is tempting to be aligned with the smart guys though.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by physis:

By Bob:

I am working nights for the near future and I see you all had some more fun with this while I was gone.

As my night work only consists in changing ballasts you can bet I was thinking about this thread.

Sorry to digress. This thread is completely out of control

No...not at all

Originally posted by physis:

I've had to upgrade from T-12 to T-8 for days in a row. Are you able to get one done in 7 1/2 minutes.

At the start of the night about 10 minutes, by the end of the 10 hour shift more like 15 minutes.

I am thankfully only scheduled to be there for two weeks in order to cover for another vacationing Foreman.

The job will last months, about 5500 ballast need to be changed.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by physis:
The book's on my desk, open to the opropriate section. Unfortunately it's not my style to go with popular opinion, unless I also happen to agree.

It's just a matter of my actually getting around to doing the reading.

Let me get you started.

Originally posted by iwire:
210.11(C) only requires two SA circuits, anything beyond two is optional....as in not required.

220.52 states the circuits required by 210.11(C) need to be counted at 1500 VA. (unless subdivided)

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I once left a company because I was expected to be all into doing a sudden change to night shift like you're describing. Same pay. The only incentive is having a job. I dumped 'em because of it and one of the owners had to do it instead. I'm getting to old for the BS part of the job.

Not that I'm equating the relationship between you and your boss. It doesn't have to be an unhealthy one. But mine was.

It bothers me when people think I'm gonna pick up their trash and be treated poorly in the process.

Same employer as the hot 277 fluoro's by the way.

 

[rbalex]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I don?t do residential, but any time a thread gets this long I at least want to peek at what?s capturing everyone?s attention.

As I understand it, this is the basic thrust:

Two Small Appliance (SA) circuits are ?required.? More than that is ?permitted.? That doesn?t seem to be debatable.

What is debated is whether additional SAs are to be considered in load calculations.

One point of view would say, by the simple virtue of existence, the additional circuits each require direct addition of 1500VA to the load calculations; the other view says, since they are not required in the first place, they don?t need to be considered.

Is this a fair summary? To me, both arguments are reasonable on their face. It?s one of the reasons I?m glad I don?t do residential

Personally, the second point of view seems compliant with current text, but there are so many circular references, it?s hard for me to tell what the underlying fundamental requirement was originally ? the load calcs or the minimum number of SAs.

SO ? what is the minimum safety issue? Or is there any? The reason I ask it this way, is I have always said the Purpose of the Code is ?Practical Safeguarding.? After ?safe? is achieved, ?cost? is a reasonable consideration before requiring ?safer.? However, we as professionals cannot deliberately leave what we believe is an unsafe condition either - no matter what the Code ?permits.?

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by rbalex:
Personally, the second point of view seems compliant with current text, but there are so many circular references, it?s hard for me to tell what the underlying fundamental requirement was originally ? the load calcs or the minimum number of SAs.

Bob I appreciate your position.

In this case I do not see that many circular references.

IMO, to much extra has been brought up.

220.52(A) is the requirement to figure the required SA circuits at 1,500 VA

220.52(A) sends us to 210.11(C) to identify what the required SA circuits are.

210.11(C) requires two SA circuits.

The suggestion that 210.11(C) requires 'more' is in my mind laughable.

IMO All the other code sections and outside references brought up are not relevant to the discussion at hand.

Bob

FWIW I do not work residential either.

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I never really read it that close before. Now I wish I hadn't

To me it appears that 210.11(C)(1) allows you to add more SA's as part of a good electrical design.

If in an apartment; as JW stated; someone put the dining on it's own SA, then I cannot justify adding it to the calc. mybe it was just easier to wire it that way.

If it is a large house, then I could see adding the additional SA into the calc's. Big huge kitchen with every Ronco Slicer/Dicer/Veg-a-matic device ever made.

So if you feel that you need more than the minimum, then you must feel that there is a greater load, than just two SA can handle.
So don't you need to include that load in your calc's?

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by sandsnow:
So if you feel that you need more than the minimum, then you must feel that there is a greater load, than just two SA can handle.
So don't you need to include that load in your calc's?

That sounds to me like a design issue and not an NEC requirement.

Larry how many receptacles does the NEC allow on a single SA circuit?

If I put more than the required general purpose outlets in a bedroom does that change the service calc?

Forget about what is a good idea, just the requirements.

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by sandsnow:
So if you feel that you need more than the minimum, then you must feel that there is a greater load, than just two SA can handle.
So don't you need to include that load in your calc's?

That sounds to me like a design issue and not an NEC requirement.

Larry how many receptacles does the NEC allow on a single SA circuit?

If I put more than the required general purpose outlets in a bedroom does that change the service calc?

Forget about what is a good idea, just the requirements.

Bob
I can put a zillion recep's on an SA circuit.

You can put recep's every 3' in the bedroom and it doesn't change anything.

You could say the above post was thinking a out loud.

So if you have a huge kitchen to wire I know it can be done with soley two SA circuits. And included can be the butlers pantry, maids pantry, breakfast room, formal dining, etc.

Would you really wire that way? Of course not. Here is where you would add the 'two or more" into the calc.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by sandsnow:
So if you have a huge kitchen to wire I know it can be done with soley two SA circuits. And included can be the butlers pantry, maids pantry, breakfast room, formal dining, etc.

Would you really wire that way? Of course not. Here is where you would add the 'two or more" into the calc.

I might add it into the service calc, but I maintain I am not required by the NEC to add it into the calc.

220.52 Small Appliance and Laundry Loads ? Dwelling Unit.
(A) Small Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1). Where the load is subdivided through two or more feeders, the calculated load for each shall include not less than 1500 volt-amperes for EACH 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit . These loads shall be permitted to be included with the general lighting load and subjected to the demand factors provided in Table 220.42.

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Still, not having decrypted the book.

I can't help but add what I think is simple unadulterated reason.

Whatever the book says.

Add a 20 amp circuit, that circuit can pull those additional twenty amps off of the service.

Only CMP 2 has the wisdom needed to get that screwed up.

That, having nothing whatsoever to do with what CMP 2 does say. And no bearing on the discussion.

 

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Sam, if we are adding a S.A. branch circuit home run to a panel because it is an easier route, or just plain convenient, and has no other reason, why would we add it to the calculation?

We could just tandem up on another S.A. breaker or pigtail it to another S.A. circuit, but for what ever reason we choose to land it on it's own breaker, it has added nothing more to the actual load, period.

The CMP obviously took this into consideration in the wording where they only add the 2 required circuits into the calculation.

If a circuit of any type is added due to a known load it would need to be added, but that is not the case or the code requirement as applied to this conversation.

BTW, I purposely did not paste any 210 or 220 article section into this post because I think they are starting to vanish from over use.

[ June 27, 2005, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[amptech]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

After reading all 14 pages and reading the 2002 and 2005 editions of the NEC over and over the last couple of days I disagree with jw's position. For the record, my personal take on this is: Only (2) SA circuits are required but more than (2) are permitted. When doing a calculation only the (2) required SA circuits are required to be included in the load calculation. This discussion reminds me of a customer I had a few years ago. He had retired and built himself a 24' x 36' wood shop. He wanted it wired and said he needed a 400A service to it because he had done the calculations based on the equipment he was going to have in there. He had several pieces of 240V wood working equipment such as table saw, shaper, planer, drum sander, lathe, dust collector, radial arm saw and jointer. He said it totalled up to 300+ amps including the HVAC and lighting. I asked him how many people he was going to have in there running stuff. He looked at me kind of funny and said, "Just me". I put him in a 200A service and I doubt it's ever seen a 50A load that lasted for more than a minute. I think if the NEC intended to require extra SA circuits to be included in the load calc there never would have been an exception such as the one in the 2002 NEC to 220.16(A). Summary: I think you can include extra SA circuits in the load calc but I don't believe you are required to.

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Addressing the last two posts (without taking a position on what the code says) do you people have any idea what thanksgiving looks like at any of the residences in my family?

You tell those people to not use the receptacles, I'm not gonna.

Edit: I left out a word.

[ June 27, 2005, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: physis ]