Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

jw,
I will continue to maintain that if I cannot be cited for only installing two SA circuits, then only two are required to be installed. There is no requirement to install "more". If there is no requirement to install more, then there is no requirement to calculate for more. How can an inspector require someone to install more than two SA circuits?
That is what the words in the book say to me. You don't agree and that is fine. If we all agreed on what the code rules mean, there would be no need for forums like this. It would take an opinion of a court of record to change my mind on this issue. Just like you can only see your reading of the code, I can only see mine.
Don

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

With the utmost of respect Don

I am not saying that there is more than two small appliance circuits required to be installed. I have not said this at all.

What I am saying as well as what is stated in the Handbook page 107 of the 2002 and page 110 of the 2005, if more than two small appliance circuits are installed they are required to be included in the service calculations.

Using the 2002 code as you have referenced it,

220.16 (A) In each dwelling unit, the load shall be computed at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1).

210.11 (C) (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

Above are the two articles out of the 2002 cycle that are in question.
220.16 (A) clearly states, ? shall be computed at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1 )? which only leaves to question.

What are the circuits required by 210.11(C)(1)?
Two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided is mandatory as it is worded. Therefore should three, four or more be installed then they would be required to be included in the calculation for 220.16 (A).

I challenge you or any one else to disprove what I have posted. I am quoting the sections that state what I have posted and have yet to see one word out of the code that disputes me.


[ June 27, 2005, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
You keep making the statement that this is MY view as though you think I just made this up.

Mike I refer to it as your view as you are the person spearheading it here on this forum.

I have never denied what the NECH says about this issue.

You can challenge till the cows come home you have shown nothing that proves your view.

Your reasoning is flawed and as much respect as I have for the writers of the books you need as a crutch I feel they also mis-read the NEC.

Can I please ask you to focus on one item at a time and provide a direct and concise answer to the following question.

Here is 210.52(A) broken into two parts by me for clarity.

220.52 Small Appliance and Laundry Loads ? Dwelling Unit.
(A) Small Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1).

Now the above in my mind clearly refers to the SA 2-wire small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1).

But 210.52(A) continues.

Where the load is subdivided through two or more feeders, the calculated load for each shall include not less than 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit. These loads shall be permitted to be included with the general lighting load and subjected to the demand factors provided in Table 220.42.

In this later section they left out the part that says required by 210.11(C)(1).

Here is my question to you and I want you to show us some respect and answer only this question.

What was the point in having different wording?

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
. I am quoting the sections that state what I have posted and have yet to see one word out of the code that disputes me.

This is the result of being blinded by your own pride and refusing to look at this subject with an open mind from the get go.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

jw,

I am not saying that there is more than two small appliance circuits required to be installed. I have not said this at all.

What I am saying as well as what is stated in the Handbook page 107 of the 2002 and page 110 of the 2005, if more than two small appliance circuits are installed they are required to be included in the service calculations.

I really don't care what the handbook or any other document says. The only words that are to be looked at in this issue is the code itself. The code says that only the required SA circuits must be counted in the load calculations. The code only requires 2 SA circuits, so I will only count two. Again, until you can find a section that requires the installation of more than two SA circuits, I will maintain that only two are required to be counted in the load calculations.
Don

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Bob
You surprise me with some of your questions. Do you not know what 220.52 relates to?
Just in case you don?t know I shall tell you. Branch-Circuit, Feeder, and Service Calculations

When the reference is made to 210.11 in the first sentence we are doing a calculation for either the service or one feeder.
Therefore we comply to :

220.52 Small Appliance and Laundry Loads ? Dwelling Unit.
(A) Small Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1).

In the second half of this section it is referring to when the circuits are fed from two different panels.
Hence:

Where the load is subdivided through two or more feeders, the calculated load for each shall include not less than 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit . These loads shall be permitted to be included with the general lighting load and subjected to the demand factors provided in Table 220.42.

Pay close attention to the wording in bold type. Notice that they can be supplied from many different feeders and each one is still required here to be calculated at 1500 each.

Now Here is my question to you and I want you to show us some respect and answer only this question.

Where do you get the idea that 210.11 (C) (1) permits anything?

When you get over this you will better understand the code!

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Again, until you can find a section that requires the installation of more than two SA circuits, I will maintain that only two are required to be counted in the load calculations.
Don

Well Don it is right there in your code book all you have to do is read it.

In your 2002 book you will find it on page 54, left column, second paragraph form the bottom. It will be in the third sentence and be the second, third and fourth words.

?two or more?

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Mike may I point out something?

You have made repeated references to the fact that you are a instructor.

You do realize many of the people who have responded (other than myself) are also instructors and inspectors.

Is their opinion not as informed as your?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

If they are wrong, they are wrong. As many as disagree with me twice that many agree, read back through these pages and see.

Are you going to answer my question?


[ June 27, 2005, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Mike as usual you did not answer the question asked. [/b][/quote]Where do I get the idea that 210.11 (C) (1) permits anything?

Right in 210.11(C)

It requires TWO circuits, it permits MORE.

If you can not understand that I do not know what to say.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
As many as disagree with me twice that many agree, read back through these pages and see.

I think you are now truly delusional.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I got to go, classes tonight.
All you have to do is show me where it states that I am wrong.

I have showed you the respect of taking my time to try to show the words of the code and if I have to say so myself, did a damn good job of it.

Now if you disagree with me do the same. Show me code words that say different than those I show you,

Show me where it permits more. I can not find the word permit any where. I only see the word shall.

90.5 will explain to you what a permissive rule is.

Yes I did answer you question.

I am still waiting for you to show me how you are getting permission from 210.11 (C) (1)

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by jwelectric:
As many as disagree with me twice that many agree, read back through these pages and see.

I think you are now truly delusional.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

jw,

Well Don it is right there in your code book all you have to do is read it.

In your 2002 book you will find it on page 54, left column, second paragraph form the bottom. It will be in the third sentence and be the second, third and fourth words.

?two or more?

The words "or more" do not require me to install more. If you can't cite me for only installing two SA circuits, it only requires me to install two. The rule says that we calculate for the required SA circuits. Only two are required to be installed. So we only calculate for two.
Don

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I am still waiting for you to show me how you are getting permission from 210.11 (C) (1)

One more time as you seem to have trouble with simplicity. :roll:

210.11(C) Requires TWO it permits MORE.

This could not be more clear.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
to lazy to go back and read them. when I get home tonight I will go back and post the links to them for you.

I will be looking forward to that.

 

[infinity]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

OK, now my eyes are hurting reading 10 plus pages. I have to say that I agree with Don, Bob et. al. on this one. Two are required, more are permitted. The words seem rather simple and quite clear.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Could we maybe look at it this way.If i have a huge kitchen with lots of counter space and had a HR ran to each of the duplexes serving the counter it is possable to have a large family reunion and could have maybe 4 coffe makers ,6 crock pots,5 electric skillets,3 deepfryers and 2 blenders.I have 20 duplexes.Now while this would only be fore an hour or 2 it is still a very large load and far over the 3,000 va for only 2 SA circuits.Had i wired 10 outlets on each of only 2 breakers it would have tripped very fast.Being none of them have more than a 20 amp load they will all run just fine.Can we ignore this real load just because it doesn't happen often ? I do admit that most dining room outlets end up with nothing pluged in but a vac once in a while and really should not count.Problem is we can never predict the VA needed for any one house at any given time.We must be ready for the max and not just the average.200 amps can run out fast in a situation like i just mentioned.2 AC running to keep up with the kids going in an out all day,hot tub running,pool motor running,sound system running,ceiling fans going,and water heater trying to keep up with the showers being taken.Oh and washer and dryer going to keep up with towels,dishwasher working overtime.OOOPS lights just went out wonder why.Perhaps if the 20 outlets had been in the calculations at 1,500 each we would have had a larger service.

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Let me just see if have the question right. Cause I'm not gonna go back and read all these extra long posts. And I can also throw in an opinion unbiased by the existing positions.

I think the issue is:

If you have more than the two required SA circuits, are the additional SA's included in the load calculation?

Is that where it's at?

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Could we maybe look at it this way.If i have a huge kitchen with lots of counter space and had a HR ran to each of the duplexes serving the counter.......

Another FL 'non-spacer'

Jim kidding aside the fact is the code only requires two SA circuits and it also allows as many outlets as you want on those two SA circuits.

Huge house, two SA circuits, 100 duplex's on each of the SA circuits.

That is allowed by the NEC.

If we run 200 HRs to those 200 duplex's we would not need to provide a 1,250 amp service just to feed those 200 duplex's.

Originally posted by physis:
If you have more than the two required SA circuits, are the additional SA's included in the load calculation?

Is that where it's at?

Ahhh, yes.

[ June 27, 2005, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]