Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I am working nights for the near future and I see you all had some more fun with this while I was gone.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
jw,

show me the words that make this rule permissive please

I'll reverse the question. If I do the electrical for a dwelling unit and install two SA circuits in the kitchen, show me the code section that the inspector can cite to require me to install more than two.
I see nothing in the code that requires more than two SA circuits in a single dwelling unit kitchen. The only case where the code requires more than two SA circuits is when the dwelling unit has more than one kitchen. As long as there is only one kitchen, only two SA circuits are required and counted in the load calcs.
Don

There is no where in the NEC that requires you to install more than two small appliance circuits it only instructs us what to do if we install more than two.

As I said in my June 26, 2005 11:16 PM post last post on page nine, the problem here is, everyone thinks that the code requires only two small appliance circuits. This is only partly true.

210.11 Branch Circuits Required. (C) Dwelling Units. (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

As posted above, there is not one word that leads this rule to be permissive. The wording, ?two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided? makes this a mandatory rule.

As pointed out by 210.52(B)(1), Exception No. 2, an individual 15 amp branch circuit for refrigeration equipment would not be required to be added to the service calculation.
Run a 20 amp circuit and a duplex receptacle, now it is required to be included in the service calculations.

I teach this to the inspectors that have a plan review for dwelling units. In apartment units this can be a costly mistake.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by iwire:
Mike follow me here, it is easy.

210.11(C)(1) requires two circuits, at no point in any shape or form does 210.11(C)(1) require more.

If I choose to install 'more' they do not suddenly become required

This is it man, end of story.

Bob I challenge you to back up statements. Show me where you find the words in 210.11 (C) (1) that gives you permission to install anything as far as the small appliance circuits.

Try as hard as you can to stay with 90.4 as it states what a permissive rule is.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I teach this to the inspectors that have a plan review for dwelling units. In apartment units this can be a costly mistake.

The fact that you teach it that way does not make it a code fact.

I will now go bang my head against the wall.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by iwire:
The fact that you teach it that way does not make it a code fact.

I will now go bang my head against the wall.

The fact that you do not believe this is what the code says does not change the wording of the code.

Please wear a hard hat so OSHA don?t fine you while you are banging you head.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Bob I challenge you to back up statements. Show me where you find the words in 210.11 (C) (1) that gives you permission to install anything as far as the small appliance circuits.

Try as hard as you can to stay with 90.4 as it states what a permissive rule is.

Mike you need to find a real challenge.

The conjunction or makes it permissive.

Or - A conjunction used to link two or more alternatives

We are required to provide two SA circuits or we are permitted to provide more than two SA circuits.

Not to challenging.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Well its been fun playing with you this mourning but I have been awake for more than 30 hours now.

I think I will go get some sleep now.

I will be sure to check back later.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Now wait a minute son, I think you have made an error in your thinking.

90.5 (B) Permissive Rules. Permissive rules of this Code are those that identify actions that are allowed but not required, are normally used to describe options or alternative methods, and are characterized by the use of the terms shall be permitted or shall not be required.

I do not see where the word ?OR? allows the rule to become permissive, do you?
Help me understand how "or" makes this premissive.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Now wait a minute son, I think you have made an error in your thinking.

90.5 (B) Permissive Rules. Permissive rules of this Code are those that identify actions that are allowed but not required, are normally used to describe options or alternative methods, and are characterized by the use of the terms shall be permitted or shall not be required.

I do not see where the word ?OR? allows the rule to become permissive, do you?
Help me understand how "or" makes this premissive.

Sorry Mike I can not seem to help you understand the obvious.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

No Bob it does not mean that we are required to install two and more at the same time. The meaning is clear if you will set your feelings aside and read it with an open mind.

Forget the thought that only two are required. The section does not say this. It clearly states two or more.

It mandates that no less than two but if more are installed they will carry the same weight as the first two.
This locks them into the calculation of the service as outlined in 220.52 (A) and 220.82 (B) (2).

Unlike the general lighting of a dwelling unit where we use the three watt per square foot rule and are allowed to have as many overcurrent devices as we want to comply. The small appliance circuits have a stricter set of rules.

In the class room I use the optional load calculation as outlined in 220.82 to show how the NEC lays weight on the circuits of a dwelling unit. First comes the general lighting then the small appliance and laundry, third we find the larger appliances such as ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and water heaters that are to be on specific circuits. Then comes the motors. Last we find the heat and air conditioning which is the largest of the loads.

We find that as the circuits are outlined they become more restrictive by nature. This is also how they are outlined in the articles of the code book.

Like it or not this is what the code mandates as it applies to the small appliance circuits. Weather you want to admit it here doesn?t matter to me at all. What do matter are those that do not know being swayed in the wrong direction.

You keep making the statement that this is MY view as though you think I just made this up. This also is far from the truth. Several have posted their findings in text books as well as the insert from the handbook that states the same thing. No this is not something that I thought up it is something that I have learned from others.

The bottom line to 210.11 (C)(1) is a mandatory rule and there is no permission given nor implied. If you have 20 receptacles on 20 circuits then they calculate at 20 times 1500 VA.

 

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
. If you have 20 receptacles on 20 circuits then they calculate at 20 times 1500 VA.

No they don't.

Roger

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by roger:

Originally posted by jwelectric:
. If you have 20 receptacles on 20 circuits then they calculate at 20 times 1500 VA.

No they don't.

Roger

Then show me where you find this, please.

edited to add:

It is easy to say no it don"t but a little harder to back it up with code. Please back up your statement with code.

[ June 27, 2005, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:

Forget the thought that only two are required. The section does not say this. It clearly states two or more.

Ok for the sake of argument more than two are required.

How many are required?
How do I determine how many are required?

I apologize if this has been covered, but I did not read all 10 pages of this.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by sandsnow:

Originally posted by jwelectric:

Forget the thought that only two are required. The section does not say this. It clearly states two or more.

Ok for the sake of argument more than two are required.

How many are required?
How do I determine how many are required?

I apologize if this has been covered, but I did not read all 10 pages of this.

(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

If you read this you will see that it states two or more shall be provided.

This locks any and all that are installed to this section. When we are referred back to this section from somewhere else then all that has been installed are mandated.

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I'm trying to understand you here jw. I see where it says two or more. Are you saying there are always more than two required?
If you were the inspector, how many would you require?
Here's a scenario.
If I have a 144 sq ft kitchen, with a breakfast nook, walk in pantry, and a formal dining room; how many circuits do I need?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

JW,

There is no where in the NEC that requires you to install more than two small appliance circuits it only instructs us what to do if we install more than two.

220.16(A) clearly says that we only calculate for the required SA circuits. You have just told me that the code only requires two such circuits, therefore only two are required to be counted in the calculations. The key is the use of the word "required" in 210.16(A). If you can't find wording in the code to require me to install more than two SA circuits, I do not have to include them in my calculations. The words "or more" in 210.11(C)(1) have nothing to do with this question.
Don
Don

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by sandsnow:
I'm trying to understand you here jw. I see where it says two or more. Are you saying there are always more than two required?
If you were the inspector, how many would you require?
Here's a scenario.
If I have a 144 sq ft kitchen, with a breakfast nook, walk in pantry, and a formal dining room; how many circuits do I need?

Larry
I am not saying that more than two circuits need to be installed. If you only install two then use two in the service calculation.

The debate is that 210.11 (C)(1) gives permission to install more so an additional circuit does not need to be added to the service calculation.

This is not correct.

The words ?two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided? is mandatory in nature. Therefore when 220.52 and 220.82 refers to this article all circuits installed for the small appliance receptacles must be included in the service.
There is no permissive wording found in 210.11 (C)(1).

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Don
I noticed that you are using the 2002 cycle of the code

With utmost of respect would you please tell me which circuits are required by 210.11 (C) (1).

Would you show me which ones can be installed by permission.

.

220.16 (A) Small Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit, the load shall be computed at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1).

It does say ?branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1)? so all of the circuits required would have to be included, right?

210.11 (C) (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

It does state, ?two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided?
The words shall be provided is clearly a mandatory rule.

Therefore when 220.16 (A) refers to 210.11(C)(1) it is referring to all circuits that was installed weather two or twenty.

I will gladly entertain any code reference you can find to disprove these statements.

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Larry
I am not saying that more than two circuits need to be installed. If you only install two then use two in the service calculation.

The debate is that 210.11 (C)(1) gives permission to install more so an additional circuit does not need to be added to the service calculation.

This is not correct.

The words ?two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided? is mandatory in nature. Therefore when 220.52 and 220.82 refers to this article all circuits installed for the small appliance receptacles must be included in the service.
There is no permissive wording found in 210.11 (C)(1).

OK, now I got you.
Yeah, that's what I've always thought.
For example:
Install two SA for the countertops, install one for the pantry, nook and dining and tally up three SA in your calc's.

I will have to ponder the opposite position

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Larry
Got a multi story apartment with 950 sq. ft. units. This building has a laundry room in the basement.
Each unit has a 8kw range, and 4.5kw water heater. It is heated with a 7.2kw heat pump with 5kw strip heat.
100 amp panels are set and #4 feeders run from each to the meter pack.

The electrician decides to install the dinning room on a circuit by its self. Now the service will require 110 amp panels with # 3 feeders.

This is where this debate would come into play. If I was the code enforcement official over a job such as this there would be one sad electrician. He should know better and I would have no mercy.

Yes I know, just lose the one circuit and it will be alright but it is just an example.