Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

[pierre]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I was going to stay out of this, but... I just can't

I have been reading back and forth and have to agree to the casual reader of the NEC it would seem this is like a heavy weight fight, where each fighter has thrown a punch that could seem like the knockout punch.

Without knowing exactly what the CMP was thinking here, the wording is tough to interpret, so we have to look hard for an answer (without a formal interpretation). Maybe this will help.

220.52(A) Exception: The individual branch circuit permitted by 210.52(B)(1), Exception No. 2, shall be permitted to be excluded from the calculation required by 220.52.

IMO - this would support the side that believes the first 2 small app branch ckt are used in the calculations, and that the rest are not required to be, but could be if so desired.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:

220.52 only states the circuits required by 210.11(C) need to be counted at 1500 VA. (unless subdivided)

Again you are on the right road. Now should more that those required by 210.11 (C) (1) be installed as allowed by the word MORE they would be under the requirements of 210.11 (C)(1) and be required to abide to the requirements of 210.52 (each at 1500 VA each) as well as any other section that would apply to them.

Mike this is where you have driven off the paved road and have started making your own trail.

Nowhere in 220 does the NEC back up your words here;

"Now should more that those required by 210.11 (C) (1) be installed as allowed by the word MORE they would be under the requirements of 210.11 (C)(1) and be required to abide to the requirements of 210.52 (each at 1500 VA each)"

Don't worry I have a GPS, I can get you back to smooth pavement.

 

[chewy]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

[QB]

Originally posted by georgestolz:Where the rubber meets the road, 210.11(C)(1) is only requiring two SA circuits. If you're going to go beyond the requirements and install, say, a seperate SA circuit per receptacle, you wouldn't need to count 36 SA circuits. That make sense? [QB]

Yes that makes sense. Thanks. What screwed me up was reading the 15th edition of "Electrical Wiring Residential" by Ray C Mullin. Page 70, left column, last sentence - " These 2 SA circuits MAY also supply the receptacles in the dining area, pantry , breakfast room, and the refrigerator recep. Page 273, 1st column, 2nd bullet - " Either (or both) of the 2 circuits required in the kitchen is permitted to supply receptacle outlets in other rooms, such as a dining room, breakfast room, or pantry. " So after reading all of these posts I crossed out MAY and changed it to MUST and PERMITTED to REQUIRED. Hope Ray isnt mad.

[ June 26, 2005, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: chewy ]

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Hey look. A thread that's getting bigger and bigger. And George, JW and Bob are here. And it's a CMP 2 subject.

 

[chewy]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by physis:
CMP

At the risk of looking like an ignoramous, whats CMP mean?

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by chewy:
whats CMP mean?

Code Making Panel

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Code Making Panel.

And CMP 2 is responsible for Articles 210, 215 and 220.

If you look in the front of the NEC, just past the table of contents, you'll find a list of the CMP's, the Articles they write and the names of the people on the panels. There's other interesting information there too, like what part of the industry those people represent.

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

My answer's better than your answer Bob.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by physis:
My answer's better than your answer Bob.

Yours is flashy and glitzy like Entertainment Tonight.

Mine is just content like like PBS news.

 

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by physis:
My answer's better than your answer Bob.

Roger

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Don't sell yourself short Bob. PBS news has as much spin as anyone elses.

 

[infinity]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

If you look in the front of the NEC, just past the table of contents, you'll find a list of the CMP's, the Articles they write and the names of the people on the panels. There's other interesting information there too, like what part of the industry those people represent

I don't see this after the table of contents in the 2005 Handbook.

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I knew I should have metioned that I can only verify that it works for the 2002 NEC.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by roger:
Geographical personality differences.

That one took me a minute but it sunk in.

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

They don't advertise this embarrassing event across the country do they?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Either Bob is smarter and knows more about the code that Mark Earley, Jeffery Sargent, Joseph Sheehan and John Caloggero so I need to throw away my Handbook.

Or

Mark Earley, Jeffery Sargent, Joseph Sheehan and John Caloggero knew what they were talking about when they published this in the Handbook

In each dwelling unit, the feeder load is required to be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each of the two or more (2-wire) small-appliance branch circuits and at 1500 volt-amperes for each (2-wire) laundry branch circuit. Where additional small-appliance and laundry branch circuits are provided, they also are calculated at 1500 volt-amperes per circuit. These loads are permitted to be totaled and then added to the general lighting load. The demand factors in Table 220.42 can then be applied to the combined total load of the small-appliance branch circuits, the laundry branch circuit, and the general lighting from Table 220.12.

And Bob is too stubborn to accept the fact that he is wrong about this matter.

I will leave the decision up to those who read this post and the NEC to decide for your selves.
I now teach that every small appliance counts 1500 VA and will continue to teach this in the future.

I would like to take a minute to thank Mark Earley, Jeffery Sargent, Joseph Sheehan and John Caloggero for a job well done and for a great teaching tool.
I deeply appreciate your hard work and use it diligently no matter how much some here think it is only opinionated jester. I find that those who hold these thoughts are those who think them selves a master of knowledge
such as here

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Either Bob is smarter and knows more about the code that Mark Earley, Jeffery Sargent, Joseph Sheehan and John Caloggero so I need to throw away my Handbook.

Or

Mark Earley, Jeffery Sargent, Joseph Sheehan and John Caloggero knew what they were talking about when they published this in the Handbook

It is not about being smarter it is about reading the words written in the NEC itself.

Mike if these folks are infallible what is the reason for the disclaimer in the front of the handbook?

Your reliance on the handbook is weak, use the code to fight for your position.

 

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Gee Wally, (JW) you sure can be mean when you are wrong.

Roger

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by physis:
Hey look. A thread that's getting bigger and bigger. And George, JW and Bob are here. And it's a CMP 2 subject.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I would like to take a minute to thank Mark Earley, Jeffery Sargent, Joseph Sheehan and John Caloggero for a job well done and for a great teaching tool.

I would sincerely like to thank the members of CMP-2, without whom this event would never be possible.

Richard W. Becker, Engineered Electrical Systems,Inc.,WA [U ]
Rep.Institute of Electrical &Electronics Engineers,Inc.
Thomas L. Harman, University of Houston/Clear Lake,TX [SE ]
Bernard Mericle, IBEW,Local Union 236,NY [L ]
Rep.International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
Robert E. Moore, TECO Energy,FL [UT ]
Rep.Edison Electric Institute
Donald A. Nissen, Underwriters Laboratories,Inc.,IL [RT ]
James T. Pauley, Square D Co.,KY [M ]
Rep.National Electrical Manufacturers Association
Joseph Patterson Roch?, Celanese Acetate,SC [U ]
Rep.American Chemistry Council
Albert F. Sidhom, U.S.Army Corps of Engineers,CA [U ]
Michael D. Toman, MEGA Power Electrical Services,Inc.,MD
[IM ]
Rep.National Electrical Contractors Association
Robert G. Wilkinson, Independent Electrical Contractors of
Houston,Inc.,TX [IM ]
Rep.Independent Electrical Contractors,Inc.
Alternates

Ernest S. Broome, City of Knoxville,TN [E ]
Rep.International Association of Electrical Inspectors
(Alt.to J.W.Carpenter)
Charles G. Crawford, TXU Electric,TX [UT ]
Rep.Edison Electric Institute
(Alt.to R.E.Moore)
Ernie Howell, IEC,Rocky Mountain Chapter,CO [IM ]
Rep.Independent Electrical Contractors
(Alt.to R.G.Wilkinson)
James R. Jones, University of Alabama at Birmingham,AL [U ]
Rep.Institute of Electrical &Electronics Engineers,Inc.
(Alt.to R.W.Becker)
Daniel J. Kissane, Pass &Seymour/Legrand,NY [M ]
Rep.National Electrical Manufacturers Association
(Alt.to J.T.Pauley)
Charles D. Marshall, Jr., IBEW Local 948,MI [L ]
Rep.International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
(Alt.to B.Mericle)
Susan W. Porter, Underwriters Laboratories Inc.,NY [RT ]
(Alt.to D.A.Nissen)
J. Morris Trimmer, University of Florida,FL [SE ]
(Alt.to T.L.Harman)
Joseph E. Wiehagen, Nat ?l.Assn.of Home Builders,MD [IM ]
Rep.National Association of Home Builders
(Voting Alt.to NAHB Rep.)
Nonvoting
Douglas A. Lee, U.S.Consumer Product Safety Commission,MD Andrew M. Trotta, U.S.Consumer Product Safety Commission,
MD
Articles 210, 215, 220, Chapter 9, Appendix D
Examples 1 through 6
James W. Carpenter, Chair
North Carolina Dept.of Insurance,NC [E ]
Rep.International Association of Electrical Inspectors

Isn't it remarkable that it takes so many people to draft only 6 Articles of code, yet four can so precisely expound on the intent of it in detail with no mistakes in less than six month's time? Truly remarkable.

Wow.

No offense intended John, I just think you're getting deified without your knowledge or consent.