Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by roger:
only one person is throwing low blows (insults) and that is a sign of desperation when some one is loosing a battle.

Roger

Roger I have to be honest here I kind of started it, so I deserved a little retribution.

Now why you got nailed I have no idea.

Your right it must be the desperation factor.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

George we are in agreement here,

I believe the "two or more" statements of 210.11(C)(1) and 210.52(B) are to get the point across that a 20-amp circuit installed in the locations specified in 210.52(B) are SA circuits, and are to be treated as such.

The wording in 210.11 is very clear that we are required to have two and allowed more.
The wording in 220.52 is very clear that we will calculate 1500 for the required two and for each two-wire circuit added there too.

Just like in 210.11 (C) (2) we are required to install a laundry circuit as outlined in 210.52(F).
220.52 (B) requires a load of 1500 for each laundry circuit.

The code only requires me to have one laundry so if I put one in the basement, one on the main floor, and one in the garage then I would only use one 1500 watt laundry for my service calculation, right?

I think what it says in 220.52 (B) is, A load of not less than 1500 volt-amperes shall be included for each 2-wire laundry branch circuit installed as required by 210.11(C)(2)

HEY!!! That is exactly what is said about the small appliance circuits.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I've been known to throw a low one every now and then.

I inevitably regret them later on.

Hey, a Snicker's bar would be half as good without the nuts, I think the forum is the same way.

 

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Bob,

Now why you got nailed I have no idea.

I guess I got to close to the action and became a casualty of the kicking, spitting, a scratching he was throwing around.

Roger

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by roger:


Read the (2002) sections already quoted closely with no bias.

If someone wants to bring 220.82 up let's start another thread.

Roger [/QB]

Here you can see that Roger is trying to use the 2002 cycle in a discussion that is about the 2005 cycle.
He has made reference to the ?05 cycle (220.82) at the same time he is referring to the ?02.

I see this as a stab of desperation to try and confuse the discussion or a lack of knowledge of the matter being discussed.
:roll:

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
[QB] George we are in agreement here,

I believe the "two or more" statements of 210.11(C)(1) and 210.52(B) are to get the point across that a 20-amp circuit installed in the locations specified in 210.52(B) are SA circuits, and are to be treated as such.

I was speaking from an installation standpoint, Mike.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Here you can see that Roger is trying to use the 2002 cycle in a discussion that is about the 2005 cycle.
He has made reference to the ?05 cycle (220.82) at the same time he is referring to the ?02.

I see this as a stab of desperation to try and confuse the discussion or a lack of knowledge of the matter being discussed.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
The code only requires me to have one laundry so if I put one in the basement, one on the main floor, and one in the garage then I would only use one 1500 watt laundry for my service calculation, right?

Right.

What you have is the standard laundry circuit, and then two washing machines (fixed appliances) that are accounted for differently.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
The wording in 210.11 is very clear that we are required to have two and allowed more.

Yes you are correct.

Originally posted by jwelectric:
The wording in 220.52 is very clear that we will calculate 1500 for the required two and for each two-wire circuit added there too.

Nope, that is incorrect ask yourself some basic questions here.

Why in 220.52 did they chose to state.

"the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1)."

When if you are correct all they had to say was this.

"the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit"

Now ask yourself why they had to have a second part in 220.52(C) to deal with subdivided feeders.

And that section simply states

"the calculated load for each shall include not less than 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit."

The answer is obvious, with subdivided feeders you count each SA circuit.

Without subdivided feeders you only count the required circuits.

It makes no difference what you think it says, what you want it to say or what the handbook claims it says.

All that ever matters is what is written in the NEC sections.

And as much as you dance around in circles it does not change the fact you have not presented any code section to prove your point.

Mike your stubbornness is not always a virtue.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

George, help me out. Read the first four post of this thread. I think that the ?05 cycle has been used from the start.

Roger lives in NC and we are in the ?05 cycle.

As to the 1500 watts for EACH small appliance circuit this goes back several cycles.

 

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

JW, how can I be talking about 220.82 in the 02, it doesn't exist until the 05 cycle. :roll: Please notice there is no 220.82 in your 02 code book. You should know that.

This is the reason I said to start another thread where it could be discussed.

Roger

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by georgestolz:
All quotes thus far have been from the 2002 NEC

This 2002 - 2005 thing was confusing me a bit and in my first post I made a reference to both codes.

All my other posts have been based on 2005 and I will continue all further posts based on the 2005.

 

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Okay, I'll use the 05 too from this point on.

Roger

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Busted. I was too lazy to look and see if 2002 or 2005 quotes were used.

Let's look at this another way, Mike.

If 210.11 and 210.52 just said "two", then it would be illegal to have three.

Why would chopping the SA's into several different circuits have any bearing on the connected load?

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
As to the 1500 watts for EACH small appliance circuit this goes back several cycles.

Only for EACH of the required SA circuits.

I might feel differently if you could point me to a place in any of your 700+ posts on this forum where you admitted a mistake.

I can point you to many places where I have been wrong.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by iwire:
I might feel differently if you could point me to a place in any of your 700+ posts on this forum where you admitted a mistake.

I've seen him do it, but not as often as I would expect.

Too lazy to search for an example right now. Got to go return a Rug Doctor.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Bob
How can you state a section of the code and not state it correctly?

I agree with you whole heartily that 220.52 states In each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1).

Where you fail to see is what 210.11(C)(1) says. You are trying to stop at the word TWO but there are more words to be read.

210.11(C)(1) In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two OR MORE 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

220.52 clearly states that we are required to calculate those circuits required by 210.11 (C)(1) at 1500 volt-amperes each. 210.11 (C) (1) states two or MORE which is to say that if we install more for this section then these additional circuits are bound to the calculations of 220.52.

Yes I have used the code to prove my point just as the Hand book points out. Delmar Thomason also states the same in their text book.
Here we have three people that disagree with all of these scholars so which do you think I will go with?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by roger:
JW, how can I be talking about 220.82 in the 02, it doesn't exist until the 05 cycle. :roll: Please notice there is no 220.82 in your 02 code book. You should know that.

This is the reason I said to start another thread where it could be discussed.

Roger

Looks as though you are totally confused at this point. I was quoting you my friend.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Mike your still in the dark, you have not shown anything except your refusal to accept what is written in the NEC.

210.11(C) only requires two SA circuits, anything beyond two is optional....as in not required.

220.52 only states the circuits required by 210.11(C) need to be counted at 1500 VA. (unless subdivided)

It is simple, it is clear and there is no gray area.

Lets try something else.

How many SA receptacles may I install on one SA circuit?

As many as I want.

Now lets say I install 20 duplex receptacles on one SA circuit.

That is allowed right?

Now I change it to 20 separate SA circuits each feeding the same 20 duplex receptacles.

This has ZERO effect on the load on the service.

And the CMP has recognized it.

It's been fun but it's time for you to fold up the tent and rethink this subject.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Mike your still in the dark, you have not shown anything except your refusal to accept what is written in the NEC.

I am quoting the NEC as it is outlined. I am applying the whole of each section to the other instead of applying that part that would make me sound right.

210.11(C) only requires two SA circuits, anything beyond two is optional....as in not required.

Yes you are correct. Any other optional circuit that is installed will have to conform to the NEC just as those that are required.

220.52 only states the circuits required by 210.11(C) need to be counted at 1500 VA. (unless subdivided)

Again you are on the right road. Now should more that those required by 210.11 (C) (1) be installed as allowed by the word MORE they would be under the requirements of 210.11 (C)(1) and be required to abide to the requirements of 210.52 (each at 1500 VA each) as well as any other section that would apply to them.

Now I change it to 20 separate SA circuits each feeding the same 20 duplex receptacles.

This has ZERO effect on the load on the service.

Here you are incorrect. Now there would be a demand of 30,000 VA before any derating is applied,

It's been fun but it's time for you to fold up the tent and rethink this subject.

I agree that it has been fun. I enjoy teaching those who are in the dark. I do hope that you have learned something.