Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

[dillon3c]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I see we are "splitting hairs" in this thread this morning..

I agree with JW Electric,and will not/never quote handbook in doing so..

Minimum of 2 small appliances circuits @1500va for each two wire small appliance branch in dwelling calculation.And 1500va for each accrued afterwards,in each additional two wire small appliance branch..

*Seems understandable in wording to me..

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Mike you are mistaken with part of this.

If I use part III of Article 220 I only have to count the required SA circuits. This is made clear by 2005 220.52 regardless of what any other book may say.

If you do not see this then your students should move on to another teacher.

220.52 Small Appliance and Laundry Loads ? Dwelling Unit.
(A) Small Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1). Where the load is subdivided through two or more feeders, the calculated load for each shall include not less than 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit. These loads shall be permitted to be included with the general lighting load and subjected to the demand factors provided in Table 220.42.

Now I do have to agree with you as to what happens when we move to part IV of article 220

If (and only if) we choose to use part IVs optional calculations we will have to count each and every SA circuit in the service calculations.

This is made clear by 2005 NEC 220.82(B)(2).

So if you find it easer to swallow we are both right.

Using the normal calculations in part III only count the required SA circuits.

Using the Optional calculations in part IV we must count all the SA circuits.

[ June 26, 2005, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by dillon3c:
I see we are "splitting hairs" in this thread this morning..

I agree with JW Electric,and will not/never quote handbook in doing so..

Minimum of 2 small appliances circuits @1500va for each two wire small appliance branch in dwelling calculation.And 1500va for each accrued afterwards,in each additional two wire small appliance branch..

*Seems understandable in wording to me..

I am not sure which 'side' your on in regards to the handbook but I would unhook your wagon from JWElectric and read the sections as written in the NEC.

It's funny people only use terms like 'splitting hairs' when the words in the NEC do not support their position.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I'm not taking sides,have had more than one instructor Bob...Wording of "each" and "minimal" comes into play and has factor here..

 

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Dillon,

Minimum of 2 small appliances circuits @1500va for each two wire small appliance branch in dwelling calculation.And 1500va for each accrued afterwards,in each additional two wire small appliance branch..

where is that quoted from? If it is your opinion it has no more weight than the handbook comentary.

See the wording that has been quoted and you will see only the 2 required S.A. circuits need be considered.

Read the (2002) sections already quoted closely with no bias.

If someone wants to bring 220.82 up let's start another thread.

Roger

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by dillon3c:
Wording of "each" and "minimal" comes into play and has factor here..

What does that mean?

The one and only thing that comes into play is the code sections as written in the NEC, and the sections are clear.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Bob,
How does the statement,"Two or more" @1500va for each..Where and how does the word more ,and what meaning does it have?

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by dillon3c:
Bob,
How does the statement,"Two or more" @1500va for each..Where and how does the word more ,and what meaning does it have?

Dillon please tell me what section you got that from and I will answer.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

You know what, now that I have looked at 220.82 some more I will have to admit I was wrong.

We only have to count the two required SA circuits no mater if we use part III or part IV.

220.82(B)(2)1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire, 20-ampere small appliance branch circuit and each laundry branch circuit specified in 220.52

Go to 220.52 and it tells us the ones required by 210.11(C)

See Mike I can admit when I am wrong.

How about you?

 

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Dillon, you can have "more", but they would not be required to be used in the calculation since they are not required to exist.

Roger

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by dillon3c:
I see we are "splitting hairs" in this thread this morning..

I agree with JW Electric,and will not/never quote handbook in doing so..

Dillon, 225 amps in a load calc (prior to demand) is not splitting hairs.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by georgestolz:
If someone asked you, how many SA circuits are required in a house, what would your answer be? The only answer is two. It's not three, because I can legally install less than three and be compliant.

George excellent way to put it, thank you.

Bob

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

two or more,,So if theres more than 2,do you toss the third to the wind?

220.52(A) 1500va for each 2-wire small appliance branch circuit.

210.11(C)(1)-in addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two -or-more 20 ampere small appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(b)(1)

So,want forums take of:

*two or more

*and statement of each..

[ June 26, 2005, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Bob
Are you not reading the section or are you reading ONLY THE PART THAT SUITES YOU

220.52 Small Appliance and Laundry Loads ? Dwelling Unit.
(A) Small Appliance Circuit Load.
In each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1).
Where the load is subdivided through two or more feeders, the calculated load for each shall include not less than 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit.
These loads shall be permitted to be included with the general lighting load and subjected to the demand factors provided in Table 220.42.

Here I have broke this down into sentences, the first states those required by 210.11 (C) (1).
What does 210.11 (C) (1) say?
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, TWO OR MORE 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

I do believe that I see the words two or more in 210.11 (C) (1). In 210.52 (A) I can see the words each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1).

Now this is what the NEC has to say.
210.11 two or more 220.52 will be calculated at 1500 each.

Bob
Now if you can?t see this maybe you need to find another trade.
(If you do not see this then your students should move on to another teacher.)

Roger
I know that most of those western mountain boys are a little slow but you should know that we are in the 2005 cycle

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by dillon3c:
220.52 1500va for each 2-wire small appliance branch circuit.

Dillon you placed the period after the word circuit.

That is both unfair and incorrect,the sentence does not stop at the word circuit.

The section reads like in part like this.

220.52 Small Appliance and Laundry Loads ? Dwelling Unit.
(A) Small Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1).

"required by 210.11(C)(1)" is part of that first sentence and changes everything in regards to this discussion.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Bob,not trying to be unfair.If I left something out,wasn't the intent of swaying one way or another..Clairifing wording of "each" and "more than two"..in statement..

Point I'm getting at,if there is a third small appliance branch,you are required @1500va..

Wording of "two or more" doesn't relieve you of requirements of factor in calculation, of third appliance branch circuit,in the dwelling load calculations...

You can't toss it to wind...

[ June 26, 2005, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Mike I am fine with reading 220.52, it clearly tells us the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1), unless subdivided.

From here George made it very simple.

How many SA circuits are required by the NEC in a dwelling unit.

The answer of course is two.

End of story.

Your interpretation is not supported by the words in the NEC.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by dillon3c:
Wording of "two or more" doesn't relieve you of requirements of factor in calaculation, of third appliance branch circuit,in the dwelling load calculations...

OK lets look at it your way.

210.11 (C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

Just how many 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits are required by 210.11 (C) it says two or more.

You say I can not just 'toss it to the wind' so I must have to provide 'more'

Just how many is 'more'?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by jwelectric:
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, TWO OR MORE 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

I do believe that I see the words two or more in 210.11 (C) (1). In 210.52 (A) I can see the words each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1).

Mike, let's look at a f'rinstance of why 220 could be worded the way it is, and why 210.11(C) could be worded the way it is.

Suppose in 2008, 210.52(B) were to change the requirements, stating that if a fridge is present, refrigerators must always have their own SA circuit that doesn't cover any countertop outlets, but that SA circuir may serve the dining room and other related rooms. Could happen.

That would require a coordinated revision of 210.11(C)(1); except, as worded, 210.11(C)(1) is flexible to the tune of related requirements. It can remain as it is.

In that event, then you would have three required SA circuits, if a fridge were present.

It's similar to the now nonexistent "number of outlets unknown" backdoor requirement of the 2002-NEC's Article 220. Same flavor, different taste.

Fellas, let's try to keep the punches above the belt on this one. It's math, for Pete's sake.

 

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

George,

Fellas, let's try to keep the punches above the belt on this one.

only one person is throwing low blows (insults) and that is a sign of desperation when some one is loosing a battle.

Roger