- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
Still not getting the reference to 'no other outlets'.
Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
- Thread starter sfav8r
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Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
No other outlets-
Chewy made referance to (dedicated circuit)=AKA "small appliance circuit"
My referance to "no-other-outlets" as outlined in 210.52(B)(1)and in referancing 210.52(b)
Meaning I can't trail-off into the living room area,catching outlets in that room..
I can't supply a receptacle on the "back-porch landing" on this SA circuit..
Receptacle outlets served-(Kitchen,pantry,breakfast room,dining room,or simular location.
*unless as outlined in exceptions.
210.52(b)(1)Exception(1)&(2)
210.52(b)(2)Exception(1)&(2)
*210.52(B)(2)-(no other outlets)-
*sorry it took so long responding,in middle of a fax
[ June 25, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
No other outlets-
Chewy made referance to (dedicated circuit)=AKA "small appliance circuit"
My referance to "no-other-outlets" as outlined in 210.52(B)(1)and in referancing 210.52(b)
Meaning I can't trail-off into the living room area,catching outlets in that room..
I can't supply a receptacle on the "back-porch landing" on this SA circuit..
Receptacle outlets served-(Kitchen,pantry,breakfast room,dining room,or simular location.
*unless as outlined in exceptions.
210.52(b)(1)Exception(1)&(2)
210.52(b)(2)Exception(1)&(2)
*210.52(B)(2)-(no other outlets)-
*sorry it took so long responding,in middle of a fax
[ June 25, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
Dillon
I done that a few years back myself?????..
Wait a minute let get my glasses??????..
OH! You said fax, I thought you said ,?..well fax is one letter short of what I thought you said you was doing.
Dillon
I done that a few years back myself?????..
Wait a minute let get my glasses??????..
OH! You said fax, I thought you said ,?..well fax is one letter short of what I thought you said you was doing.
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
So if I wanted to I could run 2 circuits to feed the kitchen counter tops, and then another seprate 20 amp circuit to feed the dining room and breakfast room receptacles, but if I do this then I need to add a 3rd 1500VA to the load calculation. Is this sounding correct?
So if I wanted to I could run 2 circuits to feed the kitchen counter tops, and then another seprate 20 amp circuit to feed the dining room and breakfast room receptacles, but if I do this then I need to add a 3rd 1500VA to the load calculation. Is this sounding correct?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
[ June 26, 2005, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
Not really.
Where the rubber meets the road, 210.11(C)(1) is only requiring two SA circuits. If you're going to go beyond the requirements and install, say, a seperate SA circuit per receptacle, you wouldn't need to count 36 SA circuits. That make sense?
[ June 26, 2005, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
Therefore, you have to count two.
If you'd care to add 225 amps to your service because you overkilled the kitchen, Mike, knock yourself out.
So, at least two are required.
Therefore, you have to count two.
If you'd care to add 225 amps to your service because you overkilled the kitchen, Mike, knock yourself out.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
Mike & George this is an area of the NEC that I do not use other than for tests so I may definitely learn something here.
Mike, I see your posts of the code sections and I see what you have made bold. But I also see that you stopped right before what seems to to be two critical words.
required by
Please, before your heels get dug in so deep there is no way to get them out, read the sections without any prejudice.
Bob
Mike & George this is an area of the NEC that I do not use other than for tests so I may definitely learn something here.
Mike, I see your posts of the code sections and I see what you have made bold. But I also see that you stopped right before what seems to to be two critical words.
required by
Please, before your heels get dug in so deep there is no way to get them out, read the sections without any prejudice.
It looks to me that unless you subdivide the load between two or more feeders you are only required to count the two required SA circuits.
Bob
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
Lets think about the big picture here.
Lets say we wire an entire house on one circuit (please put aside all the reasons we can't ) and the load on that one circuit turns out to be 50 amps of actual load at the time the measurement was taken.
Re-wire that very same house with each outlet on a dedicated circuit. The total load on the service would remain 50 amps.
Now jump back to the SA circuits, the load applied to the service through two SA circuits or ten SA circuits remains the same.
IMO If your wiring a large home you should consider going beyond code minimums but that is a design issue.
As always 90.1(B) comes to my mind.
[ June 26, 2005, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Lets think about the big picture here.
Lets say we wire an entire house on one circuit (please put aside all the reasons we can't
) and the load on that one circuit turns out to be 50 amps of actual load at the time the measurement was taken.Re-wire that very same house with each outlet on a dedicated circuit. The total load on the service would remain 50 amps.
Now jump back to the SA circuits, the load applied to the service through two SA circuits or ten SA circuits remains the same.
IMO If your wiring a large home you should consider going beyond code minimums but that is a design issue.
As always 90.1(B) comes to my mind.
[ June 26, 2005, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
In a larger home with 4 persons , you will in general have a higher load.Several things create this.Additional air conditioning/heat,more lights,likely an extra frig and a freezer,wine cooler,trash compactor.I rather dought you will cook much more but you will have the ability to run unlimited appliances with that huge kitchen counter.So if we have 5 SA branches in kitchen 1 more for frig,1 in breakfast nook,1 in dining room,2 in butlers pantry for total of 10 x 1500
=15kw.Does anyone really believe this load would really happen ? Not likely.
In a larger home with 4 persons , you will in general have a higher load.Several things create this.Additional air conditioning/heat,more lights,likely an extra frig and a freezer,wine cooler,trash compactor.I rather dought you will cook much more but you will have the ability to run unlimited appliances with that huge kitchen counter.So if we have 5 SA branches in kitchen 1 more for frig,1 in breakfast nook,1 in dining room,2 in butlers pantry for total of 10 x 1500
=15kw.Does anyone really believe this load would really happen ? Not likely.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
I agree Jim and that larger home ends up with a larger service because of the 220.3(A) requirement to provide 3 Volt-Amperes per Square Foot in a dwelling unit.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
This does prompt a question from me, though.
Does anyone in the field actually do a load calc when ordering a service? Has anyone ever had the information at hand, so they could calculate it remotely similar to the "fictional" houses we have to calculate? Seems like the information we need to do so shows up written on the label when the appliances show up at trim.
Edit to add: I'd say the test would be better if we had no calculator, no values for any of the fixed appliances, and just had to guess off the top of our head what the load would be.
[ June 26, 2005, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
I'm seeing "fixed appliance, fixed appliance"...
This does prompt a question from me, though.
Does anyone in the field actually do a load calc when ordering a service? Has anyone ever had the information at hand, so they could calculate it remotely similar to the "fictional" houses we have to calculate? Seems like the information we need to do so shows up written on the label when the appliances show up at trim.
Edit to add: I'd say the test would be better if we had no calculator, no values for any of the fixed appliances, and just had to guess off the top of our head what the load would be.
[ June 26, 2005, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
The only service load calculations I have had to do involve fictional dwelling units when testing for my MA, RI and CT licenses.
Beyond that the services I install are either already engineered by a professional or are temp services.
Certainly I do not.
The only service load calculations I have had to do involve fictional dwelling units when testing for my MA, RI and CT licenses.
Beyond that the services I install are either already engineered by a professional or are temp services.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
I have to provide that calc to pull a permit for a service change or a new dwelling. Admittedly, I use an program to do it for me. The last time I remember doing one long hand was the same day I decided to get the computer program.
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
Every new house I quote gets a load calculation. I just did 2 for houses and 3 for churches last night. When I do a church addition the whole building gets re-calculated and I grill the contractor and the church people to make sure the project isn't "phase one" in a series of additions. Learned about that the hard way.
Every new house I quote gets a load calculation. I just did 2 for houses and 3 for churches last night. When I do a church addition the whole building gets re-calculated and I grill the contractor and the church people to make sure the project isn't "phase one" in a series of additions. Learned about that the hard way.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
Follwing 220.16 (B) the 2002 Handbook states:
In 220.82 (A) we are told that if the service is over 100 amps that we can use this optional calculation. We are to add B and C together or do B then do C and add the two.
(B) tells me to use 100% of the first 10KW and 40% of the remainder of this calculation
(B) (1) tell me to use three watts per square foot for the general lighting
Pay real close attention to this next one
(B) (2) 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire, 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuit and each laundry branch circuit specified in 220.52.
In three we are to take the name plate rating of the appliances such as range ect
The microwave, dishwasher and disposal are all added at the name plate rating of the appliance, but should I decide to add a couple of extra small appliance circuits then I must add 1500 watts for each one of them. The same holds true for the laundry circuit.
This refrigerator that is being wired on an individual circuit WOULD be allowed to be on a 20 amp circuit with a duplex IF there was another 1500 watts added to the service calculation.
Those who use a third 20 amp circuit for the dinning room ARE required to add an additional 1500 watts to their service calculation.
[ June 26, 2005, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
Follwing 220.16 (B) the 2002 Handbook states:
Following 220.52 (B) the 2005 Handbook states:
Being that I am lazy and had a bad night last night I will use the optional feeder and service load calculation for this lesson in the small appliance and laundry class.
In 220.82 (A) we are told that if the service is over 100 amps that we can use this optional calculation. We are to add B and C together or do B then do C and add the two.
(B) tells me to use 100% of the first 10KW and 40% of the remainder of this calculation
(B) (1) tell me to use three watts per square foot for the general lighting
Pay real close attention to this next one
(B) (2) 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire, 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuit and each laundry branch circuit specified in 220.52.
In three we are to take the name plate rating of the appliances such as range ect
The microwave, dishwasher and disposal are all added at the name plate rating of the appliance, but should I decide to add a couple of extra small appliance circuits then I must add 1500 watts for each one of them. The same holds true for the laundry circuit.
This refrigerator that is being wired on an individual circuit WOULD be allowed to be on a 20 amp circuit with a duplex IF there was another 1500 watts added to the service calculation.
Those who use a third 20 amp circuit for the dinning room ARE required to add an additional 1500 watts to their service calculation.
[ June 26, 2005, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
Mike you have committed the cardinal sin of an instructor.
You are not instructing from the NEC.
You are instructing from other peoples opinions.
From the handbook;
Do not now start leap frogging to different sections as you are prone to, keep your mind on only these two sections. When we get by these two sections then I will be happy to look at other sections.
It is crystal clear and you are mistaken.
[ June 26, 2005, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Mike you have committed the cardinal sin of an instructor.
You are not instructing from the NEC.
You are instructing from other peoples opinions.
From the handbook;
Please address only the two code sections that I posted, interestingly the sections I posted where the same two sections that you originally had posted to prove your point.
Do not now start leap frogging to different sections as you are prone to, keep your mind on only these two sections. When we get by these two sections then I will be happy to look at other sections.
As it stands right now I stand by my original statement that these sections only require the required SA circuits to be counted unless subdivided.
It is crystal clear and you are mistaken.
[ June 26, 2005, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator
220.52 Small Appliance and Laundry Loads ? Dwelling Unit.
(A) Small Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1). Where the load is subdivided through two or more feeders, the calculated load for each shall include not less than 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit. These loads shall be permitted to be included with the general lighting load and subjected to the demand factors provided in Table 220.42.
210.11 (C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).
Let?s don?t forget to look at 220.52 exception. This has some more information about the ice box
Think what you want to it is there in black and white. Yes I do use the handbook in my classes and will continue to do so. I also use the required text books and they are not NEC. I try to keep an open mind in matters like education and the ability to learn new and better things
It is so easy to see that 210.11 (C) gives us the ability to install more than two small appliance circuits and 220,52 tells us that they are REQUIRED to be calculated at 1500 watts each.
There it is like it or not.
220.52 Small Appliance and Laundry Loads ? Dwelling Unit.
(A) Small Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1). Where the load is subdivided through two or more feeders, the calculated load for each shall include not less than 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit. These loads shall be permitted to be included with the general lighting load and subjected to the demand factors provided in Table 220.42.
210.11 (C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).
Let?s don?t forget to look at 220.52 exception. This has some more information about the ice box
Think what you want to it is there in black and white. Yes I do use the handbook in my classes and will continue to do so. I also use the required text books and they are not NEC. I try to keep an open mind in matters like education and the ability to learn new and better things
It is so easy to see that 210.11 (C) gives us the ability to install more than two small appliance circuits and 220,52 tells us that they are REQUIRED to be calculated at 1500 watts each.
There it is like it or not.
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