Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I really don't understand the debate here. The code wording seems unusually clear. You are only required to calculate the 1500 va for the small appliance branch circuits that are required by 210.11(C)(1).
Don

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Hi Sam, where you been?

GEORGE, I WASN'T EVEN AWARE OF THIS OPERATION UNTIL I RECEIVED DEPLOYMENT ORDERS FOR A RECON MISSION LATE THIS MORNING THAT PUT MY UNIT SMACK IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS THING.

I JUST HOPE THERE HAVEN'T BEEN ANY CASUALTIES.

[ June 26, 2005, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Roger that, Foxtrot Tango Seven, read you loud and clear.

No fatalities to report, Pride and Common Sense are waiting on their purple hearts.

Be advised Foxtrot, it's getting ankle-deep around here, recommend holding off with Initiative B until the smoke clears.

 

[chewy]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

1) Illustarted Guide To The NEC, 2nd Edition, Charles Miller - Page 138, in his calculation he includes 6000VA for the 4 SA branch circuits.
2) Electrical Wiring Residential, 15th Edition, page 573, in his calculation he includes 4500VA for the 3 SA branch circuits.
I guess half the people read 220.52(A) one way and add 3000VA for the 2 required SA circuits and are done, and the other half read it and include 1500VA for each SA circuit you actually install.

[ June 26, 2005, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: chewy ]

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

BE ADVISED GROUND DUDES, RECON JUST TAKES PICTURES, GOOD LUCK DOWN THERE.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I once had a crazy homeowner that wanted each of 9 kitchen receptacles to be placed on their own circuits. This included one for a refrigerator. There was also two additional circuits for a dining room and breakfast nook. There is no way that it is even remotely reasonable to expect an additional load of 16,500 va to be added to the service calculation.

The fact of the matter is that the code would have permitted everything listed above to be on just two circuits. So why would it be necessary to consider more than 2 circuits when figuring the demand on the service? As stated a page or two ago, simply adding more circuits doesn't necessarily mean adding more loads and more demands. My example is simply over design. The service will never know the difference.

The same example can be applied to general lighting in a dwelling. You only have to apply three va per square foot regardless if you provide 1 or 10 circuits for that purpose.

[ June 26, 2005, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I should take a look at the issue here. I have a pretty decent handle on how 210 and 220 interact with each other.

It's just that I've seen so many endless debates revolving around 210 that I haven't really bothered to look at this one.

Helicopters are funner though.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I agree with you Don
I don?t understand why there is this debate when 210.11 (C)(1) clearly states the words two or more.

Would this not mean that when I reference 210.11 (C)(1) I would reference the section as a whole instead of just part of it?

I clearly see the word ?more? so if ?more? is there then would not ?more? be included?
What I don?t see in 210.11 (C)(1) are the words ?shall be permitted?

210.11 Branch Circuits Required, (C) Dwelling Units, (1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits, In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

This reads that if there are more than two circuits installed here then when we reference the section all that have been installed are to be included.
It does not say, In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two required or more shall be permitted 20-ampere small-appliance

To read 220.52 (A) the way that has been proposed by some here would be to omit the word MORE from 210.11 (C) (1).
It does not say In each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for two required 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit, but none for the 2 wire circuits that are permitted by 210.11(C)(1)
Instead it reads:

220.52 Small Appliance and Laundry Loads ? Dwelling Unit.
(A) Small Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1)

Being that CMP 2 included the words ?two or more? means that if there is more then these other small appliance circuits must be included. 210.11 (C)(1) is not a permissive rule as defined in 90.4

edited to put code in quotes

[ June 26, 2005, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

JW,
It only requires two, additional circuits are not required but are permitted. Only the two required circuits are included in the load calcs.
Don

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
JW,
It only requires two, additional circuits are not required but are permitted. Only the two required circuits are included in the load calcs.
Don

show me the words that make this rule permissive please

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

I see nothing in this rule that would lead me to think that there is anything permissive about it.

90.5 (A) Mandatory Rules. Mandatory rules of this Code are those that identify actions that are specifically required or prohibited and are characterized by the use of the terms shall or shall not.

I do see the word SHALL which would lead me to know that this is a mandatory rule.

Therefore the MORE would have to be included when referenced to it by 220.52 (A)

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I was going to try to add some useful input but in all honesty, fifteen minutes of CMP 2 on a weekend is simply not healthy.

I don't like to read things that make me stoopiter.

[ June 26, 2005, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

If section 220.52(A) used the terms "for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit permitted" instead of the word "required", then I would agree you would have to include the "more". But it doesn't.

No one can require MORE than 2 circuits, therefor you only have to include 2. Do you feel this is a real safety issue, or that if someone were to exclude the additional loads, the service would somehow end up too small? What is your crusade here?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I am writing an explanation of this rule as I check back on this thread. I am only looking for the truth of the code.

Should the word permitted have been in this rule then I would be totally off base.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I left this site for some meditation on this debate and have figured out the problem with the not understanding of the intent.

When doing the service calculation for the small appliance circuits some here believe that we are to include only two circuits. This is true if only two are installed. Should we install more than two then we must include all of them.

210.52 (A) mandates that in each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for EACH 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required by 210.11(C)(1).
220.82 (B) (2) refers to 220.52 which refers to 210.11 (C) (1)

210.11(C)(1) states that in addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, TWO OR MORE 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

Now the confusion comes in the belief that only two small appliance branch circuits are required for a dwelling unit and if more are added it is by permission. This is not true.
210.11(C)(1) is not a permissive rule, as outlined by 90.4 it is a mandatory rule.

The rule states that two or MORE 20 amp small appliance circuits shall be provided. This is to state that if more than two are installed then they are also provided circuits.
There is nothing permissive to this section. It does not state that two shall be provided and more shall be permitted.

When 220.52 (A) and 220.82 (B) (2) references the required circuits in 210.11 (C) (1) it is referring to any and all small appliance circuits that has been installed due to the fact that it states two or more SHALL BE provided.

The one thing we as electricians must remember is, it don?t have to make sense, it only has to comply.

This is the best I can do to explain these sections. I have used the sections that were in question and have not added nor taken away from any of it. I have applied the words with out splitting or twisting and using direct quotes. I have used the rules of introduction as they apply to permissive and mandatory and stayed with-in the rules of the style of manual.

Every text book that I use to teach with, the NEC Handbook and the code panels at the IAEI meetings that I have attended all agree with the above post and I choose to believe them.

[ June 26, 2005, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[physis]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

By Chewy:

Illustarted Guide To The NEC, 2nd Edition, Charles Miller

Hey, I thought I was the only guy who had that book.

Ok Sam. :roll:

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

If they meant to only include 1500va per each of only 2 SA then they would have just said include 3,000 va foR SA.

I am reading it as 1500va per SA
Makes no since but thats what it says

So if my load calc comes out to high for a 200 amp service the way around it would be go ahead and run 10 SA HR and splice them together at the panel so only on 2 circuits.What did that change ?Will my load change ?

Why make cost me an extra 6,000 or 9,000 va because i over wire by having dedicated runs to breakfast nook and dining room ?

Will i be using 2 toasters in morning or just one?
Will i be using 2 Mr coffee makers?

I can see where it's possable if one entertains a lot that 2 SA might get over loaded and every light in the house is on.

Does the average 3 bed 2 bath home ever come close to 48,000 va ?

 

[pierre]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

I have been reading in the many different books that I reference...and most of them say to add the additional small appliance branch circuits (if on the print or installed) to the service or feeder calculation.
As a matter of fact, none of them say otherwise.

Now my interpretation has been to not add them, as per the exception in 220.52(B)


Here is one other book and what they have to say, as a matter of fact, they deal directly with the question we are all trying to figure out:

One & Two Family Dwelling Electrical Systems
5th Edition, IAEI

Page 40
" The Code requires that a minimum feeder load of 1500 volt-amperes be applied for each of the two small appliance branch circuits required. What happens if more than two small appliance branch circuits are installed such as for a large house? Do you have to include 1500 volt-amperes for each of those additional circuits? NEC 210.11(C)(1) requires that "two or more 20-ampere small appliance branch circuits" be provided for all the receptacle outlets required for the small appliance loads. Most inspection jurisdictions interpret this to require that the load be included for only the two circuits that are required. Others require that a unit load of 1500 volt-amperes be included for each small appliance branch circuit that is installed. ... Verify the requirements of your local jurisdiction before performing the load calculation."


After reading this in the NEC, hearing all of the discussion here, and reading all of the references I have, I would say the last sentence of the piece I just quoted is a compromise we could all live with until one day the actual wording of the NEC possibly adjusted to make this a cut and dry answer.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

jw,

show me the words that make this rule permissive please

I'll reverse the question. If I do the electrical for a dwelling unit and install two SA circuits in the kitchen, show me the code section that the inspector can cite to require me to install more than two.
I see nothing in the code that requires more than two SA circuits in a single dwelling unit kitchen. The only case where the code requires more than two SA circuits is when the dwelling unit has more than one kitchen. As long as there is only one kitchen, only two SA circuits are required and counted in the load calcs.
Don

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Dedicated Circuit for referigerator

Mr.Moderator sir.

The wording that you seek,in manditory requirement of more than two(2)small appliance circuits in dwelling unit ..it doesn't exist.

Question is in fact, more of preferance in the design nature issue, if more than two were installed in dwelling unit.
-And-
Should the additional small appliance branch be added to calculation,if installed...

*220.52(A)
*210.11(C)(1)

*added:-The wording is there.. In the supporting of the additional calculation, if more than two,were installed..

[ June 27, 2005, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]