Defeating the "tamper resistant" outlet

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peter d said:
The BS1363 plug is ridiculous. Other than the sleeved pins, the Euro plug is much better.
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So which part of BS1363 is ridiculous?

The ability to fuse the line side supply to suit an appliance?
The tamper-proof access to the line and neutral connections as standard?
That the earth pin (ground) has to be in place before the L+N pins can connect?
The L+N pins are insulated as standard?

You now have TP receptacles. We on the other hand have had BS1363 since 1947 so we have a bit of experience with them. I really don’t want an argument about this.
 
Tony S said:
So which part of BS1363 is ridiculous?

The ability to fuse the line side supply to suit an appliance?
The tamper-proof access to the line and neutral connections as standard?
That the earth pin (ground) has to be in place before the L+N pins can connect?
The L+N pins are insulated as standard?

You now have TP receptacles. We on the other hand have had BS1363 since 1947 so we have a bit of experience with them. I really don’t want an argument about this.
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From a foreigners perspective, the plugs seem excessively large, that they have a fuse in them is sort of redundant, and more to the point, your systems operate at 230 to 250 volts for everything vs our 120v The last point negates any comparison between your plugs and ours, or any points or counter points between the two as it is comparing apples to oranges.

What I will grant you is that both systems are fairly old and could probably use updating, updating that is not cost effective. And they both have their pros and cons.
 
Tony S said:
So which part of BS1363 is ridiculous?

The tamper-proof access to the line and neutral connections as standard?

That the earth pin (ground) has to be in place before the L+N pins can connect?

The L+N pins are insulated as standard?

You now have TP receptacles. We on the other hand have had BS1363 since 1947 so we have a bit of experience with them. I really don’t want an argument about this.
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You also have high rise apartment buildings covered in flammable foamboard. Your point?

I described what issues I have with the British plug and outlets. Your list are all good features but they still result in a big, clunky plug. My point here is that you Brits think your standard is the best in the world. It's a good standard, I'll give you that. But it's not the most superior. I don't think any standard in use is superior to another. They all have good and bad.
 
peter d said:
I don't know what it's called nor do I care. I just know the British plug is absurdly over-designed. I know they need a fuse because of another stupid British oddity called ring circuits but that thing is unreal. Bulky, huge and crazy big pins. Not even remotely needed. I agree the Australian version is more sensible but so is what we have. Just put some sleeving or protection half way on the pins and I think that solves all issues with the North American design.
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Don't forget all the ground pins that break off. The original patent by Hubble included flat pins. This is what the US has today in a parallel universe:


pre-NEMA_15-125_10-250.jpg


pre-NEMA_15-125_10-250-plug.jpg
 
JFletcher said:
From a foreigners perspective, the plugs seem excessively large, that they have a fuse in them is sort of redundant, and more to the point, your systems operate at 230 to 250 volts for everything vs our 120v The last point negates any comparison between your plugs and ours, or any points or counter points between the two as it is comparing apples to oranges.

What I will grant you is that both systems are fairly old and could probably use updating, updating that is not cost effective. And they both have their pros and cons.
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Not redundant when you consider the OCPD- a 32 amp breaker feeding a ring. Every socket has two 2.5mm2 cables coming to it feeding power from both directions. A fault in an appliance could melt the cord before the breaker tripped. Its a post WWII oddity to save on copper and today has little merit if you ask me.

The rest of the world uses 10 and 16 amp circuits and as such there plugs do not have or need a fuse.
 
mbrooke said:
Don't forget all the ground pins that break off. The original patent by Hubble included flat pins. This is what the US has today in a parallel universe:
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True. I also forgot that the Australian/NZ plug is actually the NEMA crowfoot design. That's kind of cool in a bizarre sort of way.
 
mbrooke said:
Not redundant when you consider the OCPD- a 32 amp breaker feeding a ring. Every socket has two 2.5mm2 cables coming to it feeding power from both directions. A fault in an appliance could melt the cord before the breaker tripped. Its a post WWII oddity to save on copper and today has little merit if you ask me.

The rest of the world uses 10 and 16 amp circuits and as such there plugs do not have or need a fuse.
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:thumbsup:

Even many British electricians and others in the industry think the ring is ridiculous and should have been abandoned and taken out of the British standards decades ago.
 
peter d said:
True. I also forgot that the Australian/NZ plug is actually the NEMA crowfoot design. That's kind of cool in a bizarre sort of way.
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Indeed it is. And we started off with that with plans in place to make it our standard plug, but for some reason nema 5-15 took its place at the last moment.
 
That looks a lot like a Nema 7 - 15. What receptacle is that?

and yeah, I forgot about the ring circuits, although there are applications for them it should be allowed, main one I can think of at the moment is with low voltage landscaping lighting to reduce voltage drop. Ring circuits have also been used on POTS for reliability reasons.

Do the fuses for the bs1363 plugs have different sizes for the different amperages? Are they replaceable? Even so, a small fuse could be put in line with the cord to not have a giant plug.

Then again, we have those giant lcdi plugs on window unit air conditioners and PTACs now... I have run across numerous of these where the receptacle had to be moved or reoriented because of clearance issues over a standard 6 - 20 plug.
 
JFletcher said:
That looks a lot like a Nema 7 - 15. What receptacle is that?
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I believe the live and neutral pins are identical in space and size to the 7-15. The only difference is the the 7-15 has a round ground pin.

Next up in physical size is the NEMA 10-20, and then 10-30 and 10-50 which we know very well. But here is where it gets interesting. There is no NEMA 10-15, even though the receptacle I posted would be exactly that.





and yeah, I forgot about the ring circuits, although there are applications for them it should be allowed, main one I can think of at the moment is with low voltage landscaping lighting to reduce voltage drop. Ring circuits have also been used on POTS for reliability reasons.

Do the fuses for the bs1363 plugs have different sizes for the different amperages? Are they replaceable? Even so, a small fuse could be put in line with the cord to not have a giant plug.

Then again, we have those giant lcdi plugs on window unit air conditioners and PTACs now... I have run across numerous of these where the receptacle had to be moved or reoriented because of clearance issues over a standard 6 - 20 plug.
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Fuse is up to 13amps, lower rating exist for things like table lamps, tools and appliances that don't actually draw 13 amps.
 
mbrooke said:
Fuse is up to 13amps, lower rating exist for things like table lamps, tools and appliances that don't actually draw 13 amps.
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My lamps here are mostly on 3 amp fuses, my two vacs are both on 10 amp fuses... many things here do not use the 13 amp fuse...lol...

I think in over fifteen years of being in Britain we have changed three fuses in the plugs... and had two breakers trip.. so the sparkies here must be doing something correct...
and that is with one of the most confusing, at least to me, code books to try to do things with... Where in the USA you have codes on where you do certain things in kitchens, etc... there seems to be no code, except for tubs, showers, pools etc, concerning switches and outlets in the code book itself, unless it is a marina or a mobile installations such as an RV ... But the residential guide book and the OnSite guide book, which are supposedly interpretations of the code for specific installations, has all sorts of stuff about where plugs go...
Confusing in the least.
 
Adamjamma said:
My lamps here are mostly on 3 amp fuses, my two vacs are both on 10 amp fuses... many things here do not use the 13 amp fuse...lol...
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10x230=2,300 watts. Thats more than plenty for most residential equipment.


I think in over fifteen years of being in Britain we have changed three fuses in the plugs... and had two breakers trip.. so the sparkies here must be doing something correct...
and that is with one of the most confusing, at least to me, code books to try to do things with... Where in the USA you have codes on where you do certain things in kitchens, etc... there seems to be no code, except for tubs, showers, pools etc, concerning switches and outlets in the code book itself, unless it is a marina or a mobile installations such as an RV ... But the residential guide book and the OnSite guide book, which are supposedly interpretations of the code for specific installations, has all sorts of stuff about where plugs go...
Confusing in the least.
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IT is, but remember, a good code lets you decide and have the discretion imo.
 
In my students guide to the electrical code it tells me about zones to put the cables in, and heights.. minimum and maximum, for outlets, switches, etc...
But... though these are in many ways different from the USA codes and in some ways similar..and common sense as well.. there is no corresponding section in the electrical code. So, am going to library tomorrow to see if it is in Amendment 3 or in Part P... but in my own mind, the code here is less help than the USA code, because one needs to go search for other legal documents to get the code to use here...
 
peter d said:
This is where sleeved pins would be nice and actually should be required. I'll give the British that one. Their sleeved pins on their plugs are a superior design but everything else about them is bollocks.
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Lol. Even their word BOLLOCKS is bollocks.
 
peter d said:
This is where sleeved pins would be nice and actually should be required. I'll give the British that one. Their sleeved pins on their plugs are a superior design but everything else about them is bollocks.
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Care to expand on that?
 
Besoeker said:
Care to expand on that?
Click to expand...


I think I did several times already. The size and bulkiness of them would be first on my list of negatives. Secondly, over-designed doesn't mean better, it just means that it's over-designed. Thirdly, as mentioned, you need that fuse because of an antiquated and odd thing called ring circuits. Most of the rest of the world gets along fine without fused plugs.
 
mbrooke said:
Not redundant when you consider the OCPD- a 32 amp breaker feeding a ring. Every socket has two 2.5mm2 cables coming to it feeding power from both directions. A fault in an appliance could melt the cord before the breaker tripped. Its a post WWII oddity to save on copper and today has little merit if you ask me.

The rest of the world uses 10 and 16 amp circuits and as such there plugs do not have or need a fuse.
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Not necessarily 2.5mm², most socket outlets can handle 4mm² which is useful for volt drop or for a heavily loaded ring where a higher rated MCB can be used.

As for fuse sizes 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 10 and 13A are available.

The history of BS1363
https://electrical.theiet.org/media/1688/the-origin-of-the-bs-1363-plug-and-socket-outlet-system.pdf
 
peter d said:
I think I did several times already. The size and bulkiness of them would be first on my list of negatives. Secondly, over-designed doesn't mean better, it just means that it's over-designed. Thirdly, as mentioned, you need that fuse because of an antiquated and odd thing called ring circuits. Most of the rest of the world gets along fine without fused plugs.
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Antiquated?
Hmmm......
Industrial facilities have them too.
And the fuses protect the appliance, not the ring main.
 
mbrooke said:
I know, but isn't 2.5 typical? If your sockets can handle 6mm2 I would use that and eliminate the ring all together.
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the big thing here is the sizes of the panels and the space.. you could switch to the radials but... the wire size works, even if undersized by USA code thoughts... the switches on the outlets work and even let you cut more items off, without unplugging them.

Plus, we are allowed multiple breakers on each RCD... also a help.
Some European countries do not use the rings, and have more radials run... requiring multi height breaker panels that are harder to find here in the UK.

But it all works... and I much prefer the breakers here compared to the panels in the USA and Jamaica... They look cleaner when done correctly.

But it is all preference... I can wire either style of panel, and have troubleshot in both countries...just kinda like the cleaner instals in many cases here in Europe...MAkes it easier to track the faults many times... though some of the old homes here are way worse to repair than in the worst homes I owned in USA
 
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