Defeating the "tamper resistant" outlet

[AKElectrician]

Antiquated?
Hmmm......
Industrial facilities have them too.
And the fuses protect the appliance, not the ring main.

First time hearing about a ring circuit, I tried reading something and gather you make a loop.
is this loop landed on the same OCPD?

Can you give some examples where it’s practical?

I don’t see a point to go back to the panel, seems like more work.
But I have never seen or heard of one and am always open to new ideas.

 

[peter d]

First time hearing about a ring circuit, I tried reading something and gather you make a loop.
is this loop landed on the same OCPD?

Can you give some examples where it’s practical?

I don’t see a point to go back to the panel, seems like more work.
But I have never seen or heard of one and am always open to new ideas.

Yes, it's connected to the same OCPD. The ring circuit is unique to Britain itself. The main advantage or practicality is that you can have a 32 amp circuit with roughly 13 AWG wire which means lots of appliances can be connected to it. That practicality is also its main disadvantage because that ring can get disconnected, broken or otherwise altered by untrained people, and therefore can be badly overloaded since you have ~13 AWG on a 32 amp breaker.

 

[Adamjamma]

I know, but isn't 2.5 typical? If your sockets can handle 6mm2 I would use that and eliminate the ring all together.

OK... you have two standard radial circuits other than the lighting circuit in use in the UK... the first one uses a 20 amp breaker and 2.5 wire, and is used for up to 50 square meters of floor space...
Second is for up to 75 square meters of floor space and uses a 30 amp or 32 amp breaker and 4 mm wire.

the ring final is used for up to 100 square meters of floor space and uses 2.5 wire on a 30 or 32 amp breaker.

Technically unlimited outlets on each of them but spurs are only allowed one outlet unless the spur is a fused junction style of junction.. thus fusing the spur where it begins at.

Heating circuits for electric heating, loads of more than 2KW such as hobs and cookers, etc, are on their own dedicated radials, with appropriate sized breakers or fuses...

So, other than the radials and the way stuff is listed and regulated, not a whole lot of differences between USA and UK other than the way the devices are made... most of the rules concerning where outlets go are pretty similar to the ADA rules in the USA... or the IEBC rules and old IEC rules... from when there was an IEC and an NEC code book.

 

[peter d]

Antiquated?
Hmmm......
Industrial facilities have them too.
And the fuses protect the appliance, not the ring main.

So you're one of the few who actually like ring circuits.

 

[mbrooke]

Yes, it's connected to the same OCPD. The ring circuit is unique to Britain itself. The main advantage or practicality is that you can have a 32 amp circuit with roughly 13 AWG wire which means lots of appliances can be connected to it. That practicality is also its main disadvantage because that ring can get disconnected, broken or otherwise altered by untrained people, and therefore can be badly overloaded since you have ~13 AWG on a 32 amp breaker.

Well said. And just to add a break in the ring is just one hazard. DIYs will often tap radially off it feeding dozen new sockets creating the same overload risk in the wire.

So you're one of the few who actually like ring circuits.

I think British exceptionalism might be at work here...

 

[mbrooke]

OK... you have two standard radial circuits other than the lighting circuit in use in the UK... the first one uses a 20 amp breaker and 2.5 wire, and is used for up to 50 square meters of floor space...
Second is for up to 75 square meters of floor space and uses a 30 amp or 32 amp breaker and 4 mm wire.

the ring final is used for up to 100 square meters of floor space and uses 2.5 wire on a 30 or 32 amp breaker.

Technically unlimited outlets on each of them but spurs are only allowed one outlet unless the spur is a fused junction style of junction.. thus fusing the spur where it begins at.

Heating circuits for electric heating, loads of more than 2KW such as hobs and cookers, etc, are on their own dedicated radials, with appropriate sized breakers or fuses...

So, other than the radials and the way stuff is listed and regulated, not a whole lot of differences between USA and UK other than the way the devices are made... most of the rules concerning where outlets go are pretty similar to the ADA rules in the USA... or the IEBC rules and old IEC rules... from when there was an IEC and an NEC code book.

I hear you, however I'd eliminate the ring altogether.

 

[Besoeker]

So you're one of the few who actually like ring circuits.

Not my field,

 

[Adamjamma]

for testing at time of install, and tracing most problems, ring circuits are easier... Because you have all the wires right there in the breaker box to test, and simply follow a basic sequence to verify that there is or os not a problem. If your tester is any good you can even get a great idea of where to look for problems as well.
I mean... the neutrals are normally under one screw, the grounds under one screw, and the lives under one screw... so automatically if something has been screwed up in the installation at the panel, you can just follow the wires from the breakers to the cable and see this part is correct, or wrong...
there are more steps as any of us know but dividing the ring to find the particular fault area... just easier to think out in a ring..lol

But it is like in plumbing with the PEX pipe against Copper Pipe arguments... there are always ways to argue about the merits of each but it all comes down to what you prefer... it is actually legal to wire a home in the UK without a ring main but people are not used to it.

 

[Adamjamma]

Well said. And just to add a break in the ring is just one hazard. DIYs will often tap radially off it feeding dozen new sockets creating the same overload risk in the wire.






I think British exceptionalism might be at work here...

Well, the problem is they do not understand the need for the fuse where they add the radial... amazing because it is usually around 5 pounds for the fuse assembly itself at screw fix... ten pounds and I have a legal socket radial started... yet, I could usually add the outlets in as an extension of the radial just as easy... just takes some time routing the outlets..like a toy train set..lol..

 

[GerryB]

Ring circuits? Radials? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO MY POST:happyno::lol:

 

[Adamjamma]

I hear you, however I'd eliminate the ring altogether.

go ahead... I mean, in an average home, how many extra radials would it take to cover the home when relegated to a 75 square meter coverage on each radial? The fuse is the same but you need 4 mm wire instead...

Or, drop to 2.5mm and use 50 square meters per radial... in my home in London that means a radial for each floor, basically... not much difference to the two radials in use... But, would possibly need a bigger panel...

My old home in Dagenham would have been roughly the same -- three to four radials instead of 2 rings... using 2.5mm, or two radials using the 4mm and one on the 2.5mm calculations...

However, then we have the difference in overloads with four girls... tripping the breakers when they are getting ready for their various dates ... less of that on the rings compared to the radials...

 

[mbrooke]

Well, the problem is they do not understand the need for the fuse where they add the radial... amazing because it is usually around 5 pounds for the fuse assembly itself at screw fix... ten pounds and I have a legal socket radial started... yet, I could usually add the outlets in as an extension of the radial just as easy... just takes some time routing the outlets..like a toy train set..lol..

Its easy to make it safe. But why fuse a circuit thats already protected at the consumer unit? Thats how a DIY reasons. Second, the fuse blowing at the radial split adds confusion- how many know to check that? And whats to stop someone from putting in a piece of metal. Yes I know code is not supposed to take into account DIYs, however all to easily the system can be misused.

 

[mbrooke]

go ahead... I mean, in an average home, how many extra radials would it take to cover the home when relegated to a 75 square meter coverage on each radial? The fuse is the same but you need 4 mm wire instead...

Which eliminates several potential hazards.

Or, drop to 2.5mm and use 50 square meters per radial... in my home in London that means a radial for each floor, basically... not much difference to the two radials in use... But, would possibly need a bigger panel...

My old home in Dagenham would have been roughly the same -- three to four radials instead of 2 rings... using 2.5mm, or two radials using the 4mm and one on the 2.5mm calculations...

More circuits- bigger panel- but not by much. Most of the world gets along just fine. Be happy where you are not in France where its something like 8-12 sockets per circuit limit. As is I think your panels need to widen up, they are to small.

However, then we have the difference in overloads with four girls... tripping the breakers when they are getting ready for their various dates ... less of that on the rings compared to the radials...

Not if you have a 32 amp radial

 

[Adamjamma]

Its easy to make it safe. But why fuse a circuit thats already protected at the consumer unit? Thats how a DIY reasons. Second, the fuse blowing at the radial split adds confusion- how many know to check that? And whats to stop someone from putting in a piece of metal. Yes I know code is not supposed to take into account DIYs, however all to easily the system can be misused.

the piece of metal rather than the fuse is a problem for the plugs as well... but, idiots are idiots no matter what the country and there are too many books that give you the correct procedures to do stuff... A few hours online can give you the correct information on how to do stuff to code in twenty countries and youtube videos as well... plus the local library has the books including the old code book... when I moved here the local library had the red code book on the shelves...or was it green...lol... anyway, I used the library and the online sources to learn the differences between USA and UK as much as I could and then came in Part P... the biggest joke of all laws, in my own mind... between it and cityandguilds..lol.. no wonder there are no great electrical engineers anymore... it costs too much just to learn the basics...

 

[mbrooke]

the piece of metal rather than the fuse is a problem for the plugs as well... but, idiots are idiots no matter what the country and there are too many books that give you the correct procedures to do stuff... A few hours online can give you the correct information on how to do stuff to code in twenty countries and youtube videos as well... plus the local library has the books including the old code book... when I moved here the local library had the red code book on the shelves...or was it green...lol... anyway, I used the library and the online sources to learn the differences between USA and UK as much as I could and then came in Part P... the biggest joke of all laws, in my own mind... between it and cityandguilds..lol.. no wonder there are no great electrical engineers anymore... it costs too much just to learn the basics...

I agree- but also keep in mind that there is a lot of false stuff on the net as well. Some (not all of course) of the highest rated sites actually have incorrect information on them. Mostly because of the algorithms which push videos and pages based on the number of views. Pages which appear correct to the laymen get traction, not those that actually have real information.

Now on to the laws- yes, they do chase good people away. As the code grows so does the number of unqualified personnel.

I myself am mostly interested in T&D- but I don't think I'd ever want to contribute anything in North America due to NERC/FERC which are best for another thread. On the other hand on other places utilities and ISOs have all the discretion letting talent sore high.