Delta Distribution

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hurk27

Senior Member
Ok guess I learned something, a 3-phase delta is a Navy system that is used in both 60hz and 400 hz systems on Navy ships and subs, most likely found in areas where the Navy had onboard systems repair shops mostly in coastal areas of the country or shore supply lines, in all cases I read about it is an ungrounded system (which is what you would want on a ship)
 
Even if ungrounded you will still get readings to ground with a high impedance meter so the 70 volts to ground mentioned is probably "phantom voltage" from capacitive coupling, as was previously mentioned. Ive got an old 600 volt service I am working on and sometimes it meters like a corner grounded and sometimes like a 347/600 WYE, sometimes something wacky. Also it could be grounded at the pole but the grounded conductor not even brought to the building (if a wye) or not grounded again at the building (if corner grounded at the transformers) so then you would be metering through dirt so depending on the impedance of your meter, you would get different readings to ground. With this 600, I am still not sure if it is grounded at the pole and the only way to know is to go up and look.
 

mivey

Senior Member
I have a 120-volt 3-phase Delta service from the utility company to the building. I have never seen this before and confusion is a great place to start.

Being a 120-volt 3-phase system (Delta) the distribution would be a 3-phase panelboard and only 120-volt loads could be connected.

My question is: all branch circuits will be connected using 2-pole circuit breakers - there is no neutral and polarity doesn't matter ???

Any discussion would be helpful

Thanks

There is no ground

I have 120 volt on 2 phases to ground 70 volts on the 3rd. I checked with the engineer - he said that is correct

Trust me it is a 3-phase ungrounded 120-volt DELTA system.
I would think this is for 3-phase loads. Not sure about serving single-phase loads with this. The 480 and 600 volt ungrounded systems use a transformer to get voltages for the other plant loads. You probably have a ground but it is not tied to the source phases.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
but in a WYE you would have 69.28 from any phase to ground or the X0 not 120 volts from 2 and one with 69.28??? this is why I pointed out the 647.5 in the NEC makes no sense unless there are three seperate windings each with a center tap and only the center tap is connected in a WYE giving you still stranger voltages if interconnected phase to phase, with a 60 volt center tap in the discription in 647.5 any connection from one winding (phase) to the next would give you only 103.92 volts, but you would have 120 volts from each individual winding.

To have a 120 volt phase to phase WYE you would have to have three 69.28 volt windings connected in a star?
I tried to suggest but was maybe misunderstood that the op possibly has such a system but only has two phases and the neutral being supplied, or maybe does have all three phases but has some fault in one of them giving the readings he has. Either way the neutral reference would be 69 volts to phases.

a 4-wire delta you would have 120 volts phase to phase but it would give you 60 volts from A or C to ground and 69.28 from B to ground, but still doesn't fit the OP's discription but is about closest I can figure it.?
Wouldn't wild leg in such be about 104 volts if phase to phase was 120?


I would think this is for 3-phase loads. Not sure about serving single-phase loads with this. The 480 and 600 volt ungrounded systems use a transformer to get voltages for the other plant loads. You probably have a ground but it is not tied to the source phases.
Why wouldn't it work for single phase loads, if it is something that is likes a ground reference on a specific conductor then you could have problems with that but otherwise 120 volts is still 120 volts and most items will work fine. I do find it a little hard to believe this is a utility supplied system and not separately derived with customers equipment. Maybe it has some age, and is simply still there, but to request such a service from the utility today and they will tell you what voltage systems they will supply and if you need something else you will need to derive it yourself from one of those.
 

mivey

Senior Member
Why wouldn't it work for single phase loads, if it is something that is likes a ground reference on a specific conductor then you could have problems with that but otherwise 120 volts is still 120 volts and most items will work fine.
No problem electrically. I was thinking more of a code issue. Seems like the grounding is a requirement for the lower voltages but I have no code references handy and can't recall the specifics.

I do find it a little hard to believe this is a utility supplied system and not separately derived with customers equipment.
I have seen working 240, 480 and 600 volt ungrounded and would not be surprised if it is an old location. IIRC I did run across one 120 volt ungrounded at an old plant and the metering was not connected correctly when they tried to convert the service (it had been inactive for years anyway).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
No problem electrically. I was thinking more of a code issue. Seems like the grounding is a requirement for the lower voltages but I have no code references handy and can't recall the specifics.

I have seen working 240, 480 and 600 volt ungrounded and would not be surprised if it is an old location. IIRC I did run across one 120 volt ungrounded at an old plant and the metering was not connected correctly when they tried to convert the service (it had been inactive for years anyway).


110.4 says "Throughout this Code, the voltage considered shall be that at which the circuit operates", which is a step toward no limitations.

210.6 gives us some voltage limitations for specific applications, but no overall restrictions to what voltages are permitted.

220.5 the content maybe triggers something in many minds, but it primarily is only suggesting nominal voltage of certain systems be the value that is used for calculations, but does not prohibit the use of other voltages.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
No problem electrically. I was thinking more of a code issue. Seems like the grounding is a requirement for the lower voltages but I have no code references handy and can't recall the specifics.

...
250.20(B)(1) requires any system that can be grounded so the maximum voltage to ground does not exceed 150V to be grounded.

An ungrounded 120V 3? 3W system is non-compliant with current Code...
 

mivey

Senior Member
110.4 says "Throughout this Code, the voltage considered shall be that at which the circuit operates", which is a step toward no limitations.

210.6 gives us some voltage limitations for specific applications, but no overall restrictions to what voltages are permitted.

220.5 the content maybe triggers something in many minds, but it primarily is only suggesting nominal voltage of certain systems be the value that is used for calculations, but does not prohibit the use of other voltages.
I know we can have ungrounded three-phase but I just had it in my mind that single phase systems and/or lower voltage had to have one of the conductors grounded. Maybe I'm remembering wrong.
 

mivey

Senior Member
250.20(B)(1) requires any system that can be grounded so the maximum voltage to ground does not exceed 150V to be grounded.

An ungrounded 120V 3? 3W system is non-compliant with current Code...
Thanks. Maybe I'm not senile yet.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
250.20(B)(1) requires any system that can be grounded so the maximum voltage to ground does not exceed 150V to be grounded.

An ungrounded 120V 3? 3W system is non-compliant with current Code...

Unless 250.21 would allow it to be ungrounded. This would typically end up being a separately derived system supplying specific equipment though and not the service that is ungrounded. I would guess there is none or very few POCO that would supply an ungrounded service at any voltage.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Unless 250.21 would allow it to be ungrounded. This would typically end up being a separately derived system supplying specific equipment though and not the service that is ungrounded. ...
The only service not required to be grounded, that can be grounded to limit voltage to ground not to exceed 150V, would be one used exclusively to supply industrial electric furnaces [250.21(A)(1)].

250.21(A)(2) & (3) are for separately derived systems, and (4) would be limited to systems not required to be grounded under 250.20(B).
 

hecorp

Member
Location
Attleboro, MA
The only service not required to be grounded, that can be grounded to limit voltage to ground not to exceed 150V, would be one used exclusively to supply industrial electric furnaces [250.21(A)(1)].

250.21(A)(2) & (3) are for separately derived systems, and (4) would be limited to systems not required to be grounded under 250.20(B).

The 120-volt delta is for all 120-volt loads and I should have mentioned that I also have a 240-volt 3-phase delta for my larger loads (two services coming into the building)

I believe installing a 3-phase panel and install 2-pole circuit breakers for my lighting and receptacle loads is correct. The grounding (could be bonding) of metal raceways and devices will be connected to a grounding bar in the electrical panel with a #6 to the water service copper line.

Also I never want to see this again -
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
...
I believe installing a 3-phase panel and install 2-pole circuit breakers for my lighting and receptacle loads is correct. ...
As I said previously, an ungrounded 120V 3? 3W system is non-compliant...!!!

There's no point in discussing anything beyond that :happysad:
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
As I said previously, an ungrounded 120V 3? 3W system is non-compliant...!!!

There's no point in discussing anything beyond that :happysad:
If it was compliant at the time of installation, there is no requirement to change it.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
If it was compliant at the time of installation, there is no requirement to change it.
I agree... but it sounds as though he's adding or changing out at least one panelboard. I don't know if its service equipment or not, but the system grounding requirement would apply to any new equipment installation (as opposed to just replacing)... would it not?

There's also the issue of polarized 120V receptacles...
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I agree... but it sounds as though he's adding or changing out at least one panelboard. I don't know if its service equipment or not, but the system grounding requirement would apply to any new equipment installation (as opposed to just replacing)... would it not?

There's also the issue of polarized 120V receptacles...
I don't think changes other than a complete service change would trigger a requirement to make it a grounded system. Of course that assumes it was a legal installation at the time it was installed.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I don't think changes other than a complete service change would trigger a requirement to make it a grounded system. Of course that assumes it was a legal installation at the time it was installed.
Ultimately up to the AHJ.

If it was legal at the time of installation, and the AHJ permits it to remain ungrounded, what say you about requiring a ground detector?

Then there's still the issue of polarized 120V receptacles...
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Ultimately up to the AHJ.

If it was legal at the time of installation, and the AHJ permits it to remain ungrounded, what say you about requiring a ground detector?

Then there's still the issue of polarized 120V receptacles...
If a ground detector was not required at the time of the original installation, it is still not require.
Not sure about the recps...maybe he can find some really old ones that are not polarized:)
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Ok skipping ahead.


120 volt delta is extremely rare in the US, plus I have never seen it provided from a poco. But, it is well more then possible to pull off. I have done it before with control transformers. Anyway, Nearly all utility transformers are 120/240. Each unit has 2 120 volt windings. These may either be connected in series of parallel. For 120/240 services they are connected in series and the center bushing is grounded. For 120/208 services the windings are connected in parallel and only 2 of the bushings are used on the transformer itself. Each pole now unit gives 120 volts only. A jumper is made from the X2 bushing on each unit to the next. This is the neutral and its finally drawn away from the bank after hitting all 3 and grounded. From each X1 comes 1 phase conductor. This is normally how a 120/208 service is done using 3 single phase banks. In the old days when 240 and 480 delta were the norm for every other service pocos would do the same, keeping 240/480 rated units on hand which could serve both needs just be reconnecting the windings in series for 480 and parallel for 240. Polarity is followed as with any delta. This allows only 1 type of transformer to be in stock yet both needs can be met. In your case the transformers would be rated 120/240, windings connected in parallel for 120 volts and the 2 bushing would be connected in delta rather then wye. 120 delta rather than 120/208Y.



How old is the bank btw? If its from before the 40s such a thing could be done without raising a red flag since no solid standards existed yet in the NEC. Heck fusing the neutrals was also the norm up until this point. In addition back then in the early days of electrification pocos were willing to give you any service requested. Most probable scenario Power being new to the area some industrial electrician seeing only 120 volt loads thought it would be easier to just ask poco for a delta over a wye because it would be simpler to bring 3 wires instead of 4. Either that service continuity may have been a requirement if manufacturing was involved.

I am surprised National grid hasn't asked this to be changed out yet. Even the common 120/240 high legs are being forced out of service working or not. Keeping it by itself shouldn't be an issue, however one possible problem I can see is if the bank ever needed to be replaced. A careless lineman not knowing what he is doing might end up putting in a 240 volt delta bank instead of a 120 which would be a disaster. Chances go up if its during an after storm emergency restoration. And a good fire if nobody is there to catch it in time.


As for the system itself as long as it is grounded and bonded like any other system (has equipment grounds, panel ground bar, gec, water bond ect) and a working ground fault detector it should be safe. 2 pole breakers must also be used but they wont be effected by the lower voltage. 95% of Norway's residential and commercial power systems are operated ungrounded, running at 230 instead of our 120, so don't worry about this concept being unproven. 98% of the appliances being used wont care since the are only looking for 120 between the prongs.


The down side however is it will not be code complaint. The only place the NEC recognizes ungrounded 120 volt power is in hospitals for critical care patient equipment found in intensive care units and operating rooms. These are fed from a dedicated panel with an isolation transformer, ground detector, ect ect. The 2 main goals being to reduce the shock level should someone come in contact between a phase and ground in addition to being able to still have power should one phase become grounded somewhere.


In your case incandescent screw shell sockets would not be compliant, and depending on whos relamping that might be an issue should one touch the screw shell while in contact with the bulb. Double pole switches would make it safe for hard wired fixtures but not for table lamps. The other issue that might come up is with an appliance needing a ground reference. Some furnaces with electronic ignition require a ground reference for the flame sensor circuit. With the ungrounded source the furnace may shut down on error codes. The final issue would be if someone did not know what they were working with, which as you can imagine would be frequent. But outside of that everything would function as normal.


Hope this help. :)
 
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