detached garage

Status
Not open for further replies.
iwire said:
jwelectric said:
Ty
This deal of installing SE-R underground will not fly. It is a violation of its listing and labeling as outlined in this insert from UL
Click to expand...

Mike please remember that is simply your opinion, not a code fact as you present it.

Just as my view on this is simply my opinion. :)
Click to expand...

No Bob
This is what UL has to say and 338.10(B)(4)(b).
This is not my opinion it is what is written in black and white and you can read it for yourself.
See page 43 of http://www.ul.com/regulators/W&CMG_March2006_Final.pdf
 
Mike,

If the intent of the NEC is that all conductors installed in conduit underground be listed for underground, why doesn't 300.5 simply state so?

While you've cited many UL and NEC references, I don't think 300.5B could be any more clear or to the point.
 
Wow, I never thought this would be an issue. I agree with Bob 100% on this. With the "U" logic, the only single conductors I could pull through a raceway would be individual UF conductors. EVERYTHING ELSE would have to be a cable assembly. When is the last time you saw that?
 
j_erickson said:
Mike,

If the intent of the NEC is that all conductors installed in conduit underground be listed for underground, why doesn't 300.5 simply state so?
Click to expand...

I do not know the answer to this question

j_erickson said:
While you've cited many UL and NEC references, I don't think 300.5B could be any more clear or to the point.
Click to expand...

300.5 states that a conductor installed underground MUST be listed for use in wet locations.
Does this mean that I can install any conductor or cable in a raceway underground even if it is not listed for the purpose or the cable article states that it can't be used for an underground installation?

110.3(B) Installation and Use Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

UL listing is posted above and it is clear that SE and SE-R is for above ground installations ONLY

338.10(B)(4) (b) Exterior Installations. In addition to the provisions of this article, service-entrance cable used for feeders or branch circuits, where installed as exterior wiring, shall be installed in accordance with Part I of Article 225. The cable shall be supported in accordance with 334.30, unless used as messenger-supported wiring as permitted in Part II of Article 396. Type USE cable installed as underground feeder and branch circuit cable shall comply with Part II of Article 340. Where Type USE cable emerges from the ground at terminations, it shall be protected in accordance with 300.5(D). Multiconductor service-entrance cable shall be permitted to be installed as messenger-supported wiring in accordance with 225.10 and Part II of Article 396.

In the NEC it is clear that when SE or SE-R is installed in MUST be installed above ground.

Can we just forget about all this other just because of 300.5(B)?
I don't think so, do you?
:)
 
Mike,

Appendix A on page 17 of your link gives an explanation of letter designations regarding coding of cables and conductors. It also says that there are exceptions.

I don't see where UL differentiates direct burial from underground in terms of cables or conductiors. I notice the phrase "underground including direct burial" for UF cable, but don't see any application for simply underground.
 
jwelectric said:
In the NEC it is clear that when SE or SE-R is installed in MUST be installed above ground.

Can we just forget about all this other just because of 300.5(B)?
I don't think so, do you?
:)
Click to expand...

I don't think this is clear, but I'd agree it might be a gray area.

I don't think we forget everything else just because of 300.5, but do feel that 300.5 substantiates the use.

:)
 
j_erickson said:
Mike,

Appendix A on page 17 of your link gives an explanation of letter designations regarding coding of cables and conductors. It also says that there are exceptions.

I don't see where UL differentiates direct burial from underground in terms of cables or conductiors. I notice the phrase "underground including direct burial" for UF cable, but don't see any application for simply underground.
Click to expand...


Look on page 17 for CONDUCTORS FOR GENERAL WIRING
NEC? Article 310, Table 310-13, you will find the letter ?U? for underground
or better yet just do a search for underground

I am not trying to be hard to get along with; I am only trying to find the truth about the underground installation of conductors.

Table 310.13 only list three conductors and UL states that a conductor or cable that is to be installed underground must have the letter ?U?

I am completely convinced that it is illegal to install SE or SE-R underground and have about convinced myself that any conductor would have to be listed for underground use to be installed even in conduit.
 
Mike,

I don't think you are trying to be difficult, and neither am I.

As I said earlier, I respect your knowledge.

I too, truly want to understand this situation.

What I see is an explanation of the "U", but not the requirement for any conductor installed underground in a raceway to have this designation.

What I don't see is an explanation for the difference between underground and direct burial, which leads me to believe that they are the same in referring to a cable.

John
 
I'll post any future replies in Bob's new thread. Sorry for continuing my last reply here.
 
section 338.10 (B) (4) (b) says SHALL be installed in accordance with part 1 of 225 & 396,

"90.5 (A) mandatory rules of this code are those that identify actions that are specifically required or prohibited and are characterized by the use of the terms shall or shall not"

338.1 scope. this article covers the use, installation and construction specifications of SE cable

IMO it is still a NEC violation and a UL violation
 
i've created a monster; linking to ul...

mike's got three posts from it, i still don't see any concrete answers on this.

don't drink + type,
george :lol:
 
georgestolz said:
i've created a monster; linking to ul...

mike's got three posts from it, i still don't see any concrete answers on this.

don't drink + type,
george :lol:
Click to expand...

Thank you George for all the help and I hope that we can learn the facts about this in the neat furture, maybe just under 999 post.
 
With the information brought to light in the other thread, and given the lack of mandatory language requiring SE cable to be installed aboveground, the lack of prohibitive language forbidding SE cable to be installed underground, then I believe it's safe to say that...

SE cable can be installed inside a raceway, underground. :D
 
georgestolz said:
With the information brought to light in the other thread, and given the lack of mandatory language requiring SE cable to be installed aboveground, the lack of prohibitive language forbidding SE cable to be installed underground, then I believe it's safe to say that...

SE cable can be installed inside a raceway, underground. :D
Click to expand...

No George this is strickly forbidden by both the NEC and UL.
 
iwire

IMO also it is a NEC & UL violation

what is the purpose of 338.10 (B) (4) (b)?

does 338 cover the use & installation of SE cable or not?

UL lists SE cable as aboveground, so what you are saying is aboveground and underground are one in the same?

IMO the bare equipment ground in SER AL cable when installed in a conduit underground will fail over time & and will not be an effective ground fault path, IMO you are trying to find a loop hole for an unsafe installation just to prove your point.
 
mpd said:
IMO the bare equipment ground in SER AL cable when installed in a conduit underground will fail over time & and will not be an effective ground fault path,
Click to expand...

First off a good idea or not a bare AL EGC in an underground raceway is not prohibited.

Second you assume AL, I have copper SE on my house. 8)

IMO you are trying to find a loop hole for an unsafe installation just to prove your point.
Click to expand...

Please explain what is unsafe?

You have a wet location Cable / Conductor assembly protected by a raceway in a wet location.

That hardly sounds 'unsafe' at all. As a matter of fact it sounds beyond code minimum.


As far as me trying to prove my point.....of course I am, aren't you? :)
 
I am never trying to prove a point but I will admit that I sometimes carry things a bit far as was shown in the ?U? listing of a conductor. I have always installed THW conductors underground in a conduit and was planning on doing so in the future as I was posting the ?direct burial? verses ?underground? debate that was carried to a different thread.

The deal with installing SE or SE-R in a conduit underground is STRICKLY forbidden in both the NEC and UL?s listing no matter what anyone is trying to prove.

Article 338 modifies 300.5(B) and UL?s listing brings 110.3(B) into play.
 
Mike I spent some of last Sunday reading the book on this subject.

I could probably give a good argument for either side of this issue. There is some conflicts between code sections here. :lol:

That said when I find conflicts like this I try to imagine the reason a Prohibition may have put into the NEC for a particular subject.

I can think of no logical reason a wet location cable would need to be prohibited from a raceway in any location.

What is the electrical hazard?

I see it as a better protected cable than an SE run exposed on the side of structure.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top